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Room Acoustics, getting started with 2 channel

Asmodeus2112

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Hi, I am reading about this when I can, and at this point I understand the difference of the room, transition and speaker driving acoustics. I did some preliminary REW measurements with two sets of 2 channel speakers and I clearly have some room issues at 120Hz. Articles I have read so far address the bass/room acoustics with multiple subs and PEQ. I am running vintage gear, but am moving towards new gear. My question is what options are available to work on the room/bass on a 2 channel system? Speaker placement, sitting position. How about EQ? Room treatment?
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ozzy9832001

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Multiple subs only really works for multiple position listening. If you are in one position, then they won't do much. The large peak at 60 is probably causing the dip at 120 or vise versa. I'd first start by using an EQ and trying to get a somewhat flat response. Like set it for 65dB as your target dB level. See what happens at 120 when 60 is brought under control. No speakers will be perfect in every room and despite what some people say a flat response isn't great for listening. What a flat response does do is give you control to EQ to taste without losing the clarity and body of the music.

As far as treatment, I think we'd need to see some more screenshots after the EQ works it's magic.
 
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Asmodeus2112

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Thanks, I'm now reading about SBIR, speaker boundary interference response. I think I need to do some foundational work to position my speakers closer to the back wall, place my listening position according to the 38% guideline and possible add some treatment on the front wall. Then do some more measurements. Add some EQ after trying to work on the room through positioning and treatment.
 

IAtaman

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Thanks, I'm now reading about SBIR, speaker boundary interference response. I think I need to do some foundational work to position my speakers closer to the back wall, place my listening position according to the 38% guideline and possible add some treatment on the front wall. Then do some more measurements. Add some EQ after trying to work on the room through positioning and treatment.
Why not the other way around, that is, try some EQ first and see how that works and take it from there?
 

ozzy9832001

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Thanks, I'm now reading about SBIR, speaker boundary interference response. I think I need to do some foundational work to position my speakers closer to the back wall, place my listening position according to the 38% guideline and possible add some treatment on the front wall. Then do some more measurements. Add some EQ after trying to work on the room through positioning and treatment.
I think you are getting ahead of yourself. Let's back up a few steps, because we need more information.

What size is the room? What speakers do you have?

EQ is fairly amazing with the amount of problems it can solve. Of course with properly placed treatment it works even better, but you may find it's not necessary. SBIR is just one of the many elements that affects the sound. For most people it's effects are very minor and the increase in low frequency output when placed close to the wall is nice. Others don't like it or it excites the room modes way too much.

The first step should be to get a mic and take some measurements for multiple positions around the room with the speakers in various configurations. Then listen with your ears and see which you like better. Ideal or best may not always sound great.

For instance, my subwoofer is behind me. It gives me the best overall response at my listening position. The measurements and my ears both agree.
 
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Asmodeus2112

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Taking some measurements at different locations is what I am going to do next. I have been sitting right in the middle of the room, which may explain the bass being sucked out at ~120Hz. Speakers are Yamaha NS-1000 and Canton Karat 702.
 

Cote Dazur

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I'm now reading about SBIR, speaker boundary interference response. I think I need to do some foundational work to position my speakers closer to the back wall, place my listening position according to the 38% guideline
Reading about SBIR, is essential, I am a believer, from personal experience, in sitting at 38%, in all cases, those number can be taken with a little liberty, never at full face value.
How about just placing the microphone there and see what happens to you 120Hz suck out?
What is the total length of your room?
 
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Asmodeus2112

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Reading about SBIR, is essential, I am a believer, from personal experience, in sitting at 38%, in all cases, those number can be taken with a little liberty, never at full face value.
How about just placing the microphone there and see what happens to you 120Hz suck out?
What is the total length of your room?
Exactly, will be taking measurements at ~38% and other areas and see what happens. Room is 16.25 feet deep. I'll post a diagram of the room a little later when I get done with work and can play.
 
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Asmodeus2112

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I stream from a Windows PC-> Amazon Music -> Topping DAC -> Yamaha M-80 -> Speakers

What's the best way to insert EQ into that pipeline? (Sorry, being lazy and asking instead of doing the research. Researching too...)
 

Cote Dazur

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Exactly, will be taking measurements at ~38% and other areas and see what happens
Also consider what's behind you, and the size of the entire room. In some small room applications, you can actually use +/- 62% as the starting place for your listening position.
 

ozzy9832001

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I stream from a Windows PC-> Amazon Music -> Topping DAC -> Yamaha M-80 -> Speakers

What's the best way to insert EQ into that pipeline? (Sorry, being lazy and asking instead of doing the research. Researching too...)
I would say using equalizer APO would probably be the best option...you can use PEACE EQ as the front end for it, or just the main program. I use Peace and I think it's great.
 

ozzy9832001

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Exactly, will be taking measurements at ~38% and other areas and see what happens. Room is 16.25 feet deep. I'll post a diagram of the room a little later when I get done with work and can play.
Yeah, testing multiple locations is critical. For instance, in my space, setting up along the long wall gave the best overall response. The short wall, while more ideal in most situations, was a nightmare in my room because of 4 windows in the corner. The bass went out the windows. Since I listen in the nearfield, having the windows behind me was best. It takes a lot of time and effort to find the best position in the room. Add a sub into the mix and it becomes even more so and the sub can change the measurements from the mains as well.
 

Erici

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I stream from a Windows PC-> Amazon Music -> Topping DAC -> Yamaha M-80 -> Speakers

What's the best way to insert EQ into that pipeline? (Sorry, being lazy and asking instead of doing the research. Researching too...)
That's my basic setup also. EQ APO and Peace works really well for me. Load EQ APO first. Then Peace. Using Peace makes adjusting EQ much easier, in my opinion.
 

Hexspa

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Just jumping into this story in progress to say a few things. First, if sound is your priority then I recommend building the room from the subwoofer up. The reason is that the sub region is strongly influenced by placement of the subwoofer and your listening position. If you determine sub and listening position first then build everything around it, you'll have a sonically stable foundation. Above the crossover frequency is easier to manage with absorption, worst comes to worst, so you have more flexibility there.

38% is a depreciated standard. In fact, I never found it perfect. Credit where credit is due, Anthony Grimani made a strong case for 20, 32 and 45% each axial dimension and I find that much better and more flexible. That's for your listening position. Mark those off with tape and put your sub in a primary trihedral corner like your front-side wall. Take measurements and juggle the positions until you find the maximum gain at the lowest frequency with a minimum of nulls below the crossover point (~85Hz). Your sub will probably be somewhere along your front wall but not centered and not too far away. About a 1/4 wavelength is not unreasonable; it's also a valid location despite what some might say. After you've gotten the best response, you can add your mains, absorption, and everything else. Measure again, tweak and integrate: done.

What I can tell you about absorption is this: you can predict room modes and I suggest you find a calculator for doing so. Each dimension supports a fundamental resonance of double its distance and the resonances follow the harmonic series from there. Your first four modal harmonics are the biggest dogs so just focus on those. Now here's a key point: you don't necessarily need to fully absorb all your ringing. In other words, some people say you need 1/4 wavelength-thick frictional absorption to treat your bass. Not so! It depends on your targets and needs and the absorptive/transmissive properties of your boundaries. If you plan on adding a lot of absorption because it's a multi-purpose room, like a home studio, then sufficient coverage of thinner material can get you to where you want to be. My target is 20dB decay within 150ms above 63Hz with a smooth taper, longer toward the bottom. The easiest way to do this is about 15% coverage with sufficiently thick absorption. The three classes of frictional absorbers are rigid like OC703, semi-rigid like Safe n' Sound, and fluffy like pink R19. Thickness per material type matters and the ideal thicknesses for each material are 6", 12" and 24" respectively. You can gap the material 1x thickness from the wall for lower octave performance with a slight penalty in the lower mids. Additionally, you can add FRK to non-early reflection points to further enhance the performance via a damped pressure element. If you are tight on space, either use a lot of 6" rigid or invest in pressure absorbers if needed. I'm of the school that more is better and have seen that very few, if any, people proceed with absorption to the point where their room sounds "too dead" as some claim. A huge mistake is covering your whole place with 2" foam - don't do that! Thicker is better as long as you don't exceed the thickness-type limits I set or you will defeat the point and introduce reflectiveness due to excessive resistance.

My contribution here is primarily positioning and absorption. I've yet to seriously apply EQ to my setups. That said, your biggest and cheapest tool is positioning. Spend time getting that right and everything else will be easier. Bear in mind that you want symmetry from your ears-forward to get the best stereo imaging. This contradicts with a 45% listening position left-right. That's ok - balance it out. Room acoustics are exactly a balancing act the whole way. It's not that hard - just making an effort will get you the majority of the result.

Lastly, SBIR in practice is mainly about nulls. Specifically 1/4 wavelength distances from boundaries. In a bass-managed system (with sub), you want your mains crossed over around 85Hz and their placement either close to (5cm) or far from a boundary (>1.1m). The idea is to get the null lower than the crossover. SBIR also creates peaks but they're less problematic. See Genelec's materials for more. Basically, don't have your monitors equidistant to more than one boundary or the null will compound and you'll have a harder time getting rid of it.

Oh, how could I forget - room gain! Yeah, having any speaker or sub close to a boundary increases the bass. That's no problem because you can offset it with EQ. You can however use it to your advantage to improve low end performance where it might otherwise be lacking. Free bass is good (not freebase though, that's not good).

Let me add that for frequencies below about 300Hz, you don't want to smooth your bass response in REW. Unsmoothed lets you have the raw, honest detail so you can make fine tweaks. Smoothing is ok above the lowest octaves. I aim for +-10dB or better. Add a house curve if you wish. Use EQ to cut but boost sparingly.
 
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