Rega - light and rigid ethos

[pastorbarrett]

Hi folks. I'm curious about Rega's design ethos favoring material lightness and rigidity like on their new Naia deck, versus the heavy mass decks so often seen. Intuitively, I can't seem to get my head around this engineering approach. Heavy mass seems like a more obvious solution to forgo unwanted noise and vibration, as well as having an isolated motor away from the arm etc. Can anyone provide engineering insight on this? Many thanks.

 

[Balle Clorin]

It is all explained on Regas home page ang Roy Gandys book also available there( White paper)

 

[JeffS7444]

Hi folks. I'm curious about Rega's design ethos favoring material lightness and rigidity like on their new Naia deck, versus the heavy mass decks so often seen. Intuitively, I can't seem to get my head around this engineering approach. Heavy mass seems like a more obvious solution to forgo unwanted noise and vibration, as well as having an isolated motor away from the arm etc. Can anyone provide engineering insight on this? Many thanks.

It would be fun (and very easy!) to measure this by lowering stylus into stationary groove and observing the output on a spectrum analyzer. I suppose motor noise could be at least partly factored in by running it sans belt during measurement.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Yes I did that when I tried different isolation on my TD125.
Rest the stylus in a record and do a recording from it while playing a loud CD track. Deep Purple “Highway star” is a suitable track.
Most of the recording was recognizable , my conclusion was the much of the feedback was through the air, but different support did some difference to. After that experience I believe more in heavy inert tables. But the test should be repeated on a Rega TT and some heavy Tt

Even better to it as a PU recording from an endless groove test record.

 

[DSJR]

Yes I did that when I tried different isolation on my TD125.
Rest the stylus in a record and do a recording from it while playing a loud CD track. Deep Purple “Highway star” is a suitable track.
Most of the recording was recognizable , my conclusion was the much of the feedback was through the air, but different support did some difference to. After that experience I believe more in heavy inert tables. But the test should be repeated on a Rega TT and some heavy Tt

Even better to it as a PU recording from an endless groove test record.

Depends on the TD125 sample and the mat it came with (the mk 2 mat offered little record support or termination). Some tonearms can pick up upper mid vibrations and depending on the microphony of the cartridge/headshell combination, this *may* also be an issue. My own TD125mk1 (armless version, I added something that suited at the time) seemed fine as the floating top plate/sub chassis was very solid, the platter reasonably massy and a mk1 mat (I tried others too but nobody's heard of a Notts SpaceMat sadly which is excellent for this purpose) gave it a clear if restrained but basically neutral reproduction.

Back to topic. I'm a fan of decent massy types as long as attention has been put to bearing quality and record support (hence my love of Notts Analogue decks). In a moment of money-shortage madness in a former life back in 1995, I sold this but kept the cartridge -

Platter weighed 70 odd pounds in UK terms and the thick 'graphite' top latter is the best 'mat' I've ever known, although some eejits on Facebook still use foo weights and so on which are totally unnecessary even with warped records! The thing sat on a paving slab style shelf and thank the lord the wall was made of 'engineering' bricks almost impossible to drill into... The current 'Dias' model is where my Mentor deck is today and it's much more stylish. You can pound the plinth while a record is playing and feck all gets through and you can rap your knuckles on a playing record and only hear the faintest 'tapping noise' through the speakers. Try doing that on a bloody Linn LP12 even lightly!!! (Been there and done it so you don't have to )

Now, after hearing and respecting (if not hugely liking) the Rega Planar 10 with Apheta 3 (played with Rega phono stage and amp but via forty odd grand Dynaudio Confidence 60 speakers again which I seriously don't get on with), I was sent this today, which is from a UK online review by a long standing reviewer who really should know better as regards vinyl, digital compared to the master recording and obviously doesn't (care) as his followers don't know either and prefer to be ignorant! To summarise, the new Naia deck and arm (£9k approx.) is loads better than 'digital' as well as the three grand plus Planar 10 and if it really is, then what of the Planar 2 and 3 which made the company's name, let alone the Planar 1 which sells in hundreds per month apparently... They must be so awful in comparison that records are unplayable on these models (they're not, but hopefully you get my drift).

Rega Naia: A Vinyl Revelation | The Ear

The Rega Naia is undoubtedly the easiest high resolution turntable in the world to set up, this is partly because Rega’s own moving coil cartridges have a

the-ear.net

The idea is that the lighter the structure, the less energy is stored in the structure, the extra bracing from main bearing to tonearm mount being the most crucial. The potential downside to me at least, is the surface or shelf the thing is mounted on and is it only me who most often finds the bass as played via these ultra light decks is a but 'tuneless' for want of a better word (I accept the crap that's done to the music in the bass to get it onto the groove in the first place, but this is excessive to me)? I play a lot of EM and low bass keyboard notes do have a pitch and timbre, even on vinyl compared to digital!

I'll stick to my ancient and outclassed Dual direct drive - it does it for me just enough to suspend disbelief in the mechanics of music reproduction and the arm takes good pickups too if called for (up to a grand anyway).

 

[NoMoFoNo]

I cannot comment from the standpoint of an engineer. I've owned a number of turntables including modern 'slab-plinth' models, suspended Thorens models, high mass machines, and currently own a Rega tancast foam core model (Planar 6). The P6 can easily be held in one hand in the air and the shipping box was comically lightweight when it arrived.

While I'm no longer much of a phono guy in general, the P6 is the quietest and best turntable I've used. When I turn it on, even though the motor is directly mounted to the plinth, it is silent, and I mean truly silent, to my ear even when hovering an inch above the plinth. The dead groove noise floor is the lowest of any turntable I've used. It sounds as good as digital to my ear at least some of the time, although the idea that phono can EVER truly sound better than good digital is something I find absurd.

Still, I'm a believer in Rega. It's also worth noting that their model line has remained stable for decades, they put a lot of effort into refining them over time, and they still sell parts for machines going back to the 1970s. It's a really good company IMO and the P6 will probably be my 'main system' turntable (although secondary to digital) until I'm too old to hear.

 

[CapMan]

@Frank Dernie - are you there, we need you!

 

[Frank Dernie]

@Frank Dernie - are you there, we need you!

Detail engineering makes the difference and not using static logic to explain what is and must be a dynamic machine.

Nothing is rigid over the whole audio bandwidth so talking about things being rigid is absurd/ignorant/irrelevant.

Stiffer and lighter raises the frequency of the multiple vibration modes of the structure.

I use a high mass solution, not least because the isolating system is stiffer for a given isolation frequency making handling nicer. A light structure needs a very flexible suspension to isolate from the same frequency, like a Pink Triangle, which is pretty awful to handle.

I notice few TTs these days which are isolated from the environment over the whole audio band, so most will have spurious bass pickup - but for many people more bass = better plus it is slightly delayed so like a bit more reverb, often nice.
Nice but not accurate transduction of the recording.

Unlike car suspension where impact and bumps will excite resonance which needs to be damped a TT suspension needs to isolate most at frequencies above resonance (where the music is) to work well. Damping short circuits the suspension at higher frequencies so what is good for a car isn’t for a TT.

Tapping the support is not testing the isolation and whilst a popular party trick tells us nothing about isolation from spurious music pickup.

Playing a CD in the room whilst recording the output of a cartridge lowered onto a stationary record is a valid way of evaluating the efficacy of the isolation and gives a good idea of the level of the extra reverb.

 

[DVDdoug]

I don't care about "record players" but it sounds fishy to me... Companies ALWAYS tout there design decisions & trade-offs as a feature or advantage.

I only had two "good" turntables (not counting BSR & Gerrard). The first was an Acoustic Research. It had a soft & bouncy suspension so you had to be careful when starting it, etc. But it had a reputation of being immune to noise-vibrations or feedback. It's other "feature" was a relatively weak synchronous motor, belt drive, with a relatively heavy platter, for low wow & flutter. From what I remember, the platter had inner & outer sections and you had to remove the outer-part and re-position the belt to change speeds. Overall, it was "highly rated" and considered a bargain, but the tonearm was nothing special.

The next one, which I still own and occasionally use to digitize a record that's not available digitally, is a direct-drive Technics, which takes the opposite approach with dense-solid construction and no suspension other than the rubber feet. ...I like the direct drive for its reliability. I never had any trouble with it and there are no belts to wear out.

 

[ivayvr]

I believe it is more about the marketing ethos rather then design ethos.
When you look at that entire segment, it is totally out of whack.
I will not even touch the pricing.......

 

[WDeranged]

I've got a lowly Planar 1 and I've never heard motor noise. I measured it back when I did a few needledrops and it was so low that I can't be sure whether it was just electrical interference from the motor or power cable. On the other hand, it's a nightmare for feedback and room sounds. No wonder they sell wall mounts for these things.

As for the sound of the turntable itself, with a VM95ML it's fantastic. I tried a P2 and (eventually) P3 for comparison but they both ended up going back. The differences in actual sound quality were small and I couldn't justify the extra cost.

 

[DSJR]

I don't care about "record players" but it sounds fishy to me... Companies ALWAYS tout there design decisions & trade-offs as a feature or advantage.

I only had two "good" turntables (not counting BSR & Gerrard). The first was an Acoustic Research. It had a soft & bouncy suspension so you had to be careful when starting it, etc. But it had a reputation of being immune to noise-vibrations or feedback. It's other "feature" was a relatively weak synchronous motor, belt drive, with a relatively heavy platter, for low wow & flutter. From what I remember, the platter had inner & outer sections and you had to remove the outer-part and re-position the belt to change speeds. Overall, it was "highly rated" and considered a bargain, but the tonearm was nothing special.

The next one, which I still own and occasionally use to digitize a record that's not available digitally, is a direct-drive Technics, which takes the opposite approach with dense-solid construction and no suspension other than the rubber feet. ...I like the direct drive for its reliability. I never had any trouble with it and there are no belts to wear out.

Best I don't go into the AR deck in 1960s to mid 70s form. The arm is totally misunderstood but it actually works well and the drive was fine for sub 2g trackers.

I'll get me coat...

 

[AlfaNovember]

I don't know about Rega's "Light and Rigid" ethos, but I do know that in 1999, their Planar 3 ethos did NOT include "Spins at precisely 33 1/3 RPM on 60 Hz American power". I confirmed it myself with an oscilloscope and a 1 kHz sine track on a record.