Newbie

[rman9]

Hello Folks, I am new to this forum, just in the last few months something flipped in me, and I have been on a quest to revamp my audio equipment. I've had the Nakamichi AV10, combined with ROTEL amplifiers with ROTEL CD player and B&W 805 D3 for the longest time. Some of the new purchases now are the Parasound P6, A21+ and A51 and the Joseph Audio RM22si (used). I am waiting on the Mcintosh C53 from the local dealer. My question is will the C53 pair well with the Parasound A21+, Should I break my bank and get the MC462? Any advise will be helpful.. Also I am waiting on the Salk Veracity ST pair being built and delivered in a couple of months.. Thanks so much

 

[SIY]

Hello Folks, I am new to this forum, just in the last few months something flipped in me, and I have been on a quest to revamp my audio equipment. I've had the Nakamichi AV10, combined with ROTEL amplifiers with ROTEL CD player and B&W 805 D3 for the longest time. Some of the new purchases now are the Parasound P6, A21+ and A51 and the Joseph Audio RM22si (used). I am waiting on the Mcintosh C53 from the local dealer. My question is will the C53 pair well with the Parasound A21+, Should I break my bank and get the MC462? Any advise will be helpful.. Also I am waiting on the Salk Veracity ST pair being built and delivered in a couple of months.. Thanks so much

You're about to be saved a pile of money.

 

[abdo123]

are you looking for jewelry/furniture that happens to have sound coming out of it or something that performs well?

forms follow function or function follows form?

From there we could provide meaningful advice.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Welcome! Have you already purchased the components? The cash outlay I see from these, are based on MSRP :
Mac C53 ..... $8000
Parasound A 21+ .... $3150 or
Parasound A51 ...... $4150
Salk Veracity ............ $4200


In here (ASR) and based on objective, verifiable, repeatable, provable, correctly measured performance... We believe and can back our assertions with numbers, verified numbers , that you can do a lot better, objectively, for that amount of cash. ($15,000 to $16,000)
If you are serious. Else ...

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Hello Folks, I am new to this forum, just in the last few months something flipped in me, and I have been on a quest to revamp my audio equipment. I've had the Nakamichi AV10, combined with ROTEL amplifiers with ROTEL CD player and B&W 805 D3 for the longest time. Some of the new purchases now are the Parasound P6, A21+ and A51 and the Joseph Audio RM22si (used). I am waiting on the Mcintosh C53 from the local dealer. My question is will the C53 pair well with the Parasound A21+, Should I break my bank and get the MC462? Any advise will be helpful.. Also I am waiting on the Salk Veracity ST pair being built and delivered in a couple of months.. Thanks so much

Did you already pay for the C53? If I could do it all over, I'd have skipped the McIntosh preamp. I think their power amp is amazing and a much better way to spend your money. But yes I'd say get the MC462 if you want, it's gorgeous. They work well with B&W for what it's worth, the McIntosh amp is plenty transparent enough for that speaker. I'm not sure about the Joseph Audio's though.

 

[rman9]

Hi

Welcome! Have you already purchased the components? The cash outlay I see from these, are based on MSRP :
Mac C53 ..... $8000
Parasound A 21+ .... $3150 or
Parasound A51 ...... $4150
Salk Veracity ............ $4200


In here (ASR) and based on objective, verifiable, repeatable, provable, correctly measured performance... We believe and can back our assertions with numbers, verified numbers , that you can do a lot better, objectively, for that amount of cash. ($15,000 to $16,000)
If you are serious. Else ...

Here's what I currently have on my rack.. P6 preamp ($1600), Parasound A21+($3000), Parasound A51($5000) all from Safeandsound. I have put a 50% down on the Mac C53($8000) to a local dealer. The Salk ($4350) will be delivered end of July. Can you elaborate when you say, I could do a lot better. Have I got it all wrong?

 

[rman9]

Did you already pay for the C53? If I could do it all over, I'd have skipped the McIntosh preamp. I think their power amp is amazing and a much better way to spend your money. But yes I'd say get the MC462 if you want, it's gorgeous. They work well with B&W for what it's worth, the McIntosh amp is plenty transparent enough for that speaker. I'm not sure about the Joseph Audio's though.

I have put 50% down on the C53. I am just allured by the 8 band equalizer and excitement of my first Mcintosh ever, that I believe I would craft the tone control to my ears. My dilemma is should I just pair that with the Parasound A21+ that I currently have, or will I benefit getting the MC462 also. The parasound halo p6 preamp is pretty nice, but I don't really like how I have to really turn it up to get to good listening levels. I am hearing other folks say that the P6 has to be cranked up.. Do you have the MC462? I'll be pairing that with the Salks's if I get the MC462.. Thanks for your kind words.. The JA's are real nice..

 

[Wes]

Expensive electronics can provide satisfaction via esthetic looks, even ergonomics, or euphonic distortions, but not a good way to achieve better SQ.

Focus on your speakers, room and source material (masterings) to maximize the cost-benefit relationship.

I say that as someone who owns an Acoustic Research pre-amp, and may well buy an Accuphase integrated.

 

[rman9]

Expensive electronics can provide satisfaction via esthetic looks, even ergonomics, or euphonic distortions, but not a good way to achieve better SQ.

Focus on your speakers, room and source material (masterings) to maximize the cost-benefit relationship.

I say that as someone who owns an Acoustic Research pre-amp, and may well buy an Accuphase integrated.

Thank you!!

 

[FrantzM]

Here's what I currently have on my rack.. P6 preamp ($1600), Parasound A21+($3000), Parasound A51($5000) all from Safeandsound. I have put a 50% down on the Mac C53($8000) to a local dealer. The Salk ($4350) will be delivered end of July. Can you elaborate when you say, I could do a lot better. Have I got it all wrong?

Hi

Again. I want to make sure that you don't feel belittled or uneased by our remarks. A bt about me. Less than 10 years ago, I was shopping/thinking about a $50,000 speakers (was actively scouring to score a killer deal on a used pair)... 'Today my system is evolving right, this system that was to be an HT-only is very satisfying, in 2-channel, even shocking. it covers 20 to 20 KHz at up to 100 dB at the listening position, about 2.5 meters from the speakers plane. The speakers are $500/pair, the subwoofers are $400 for the pair ( I believe in using at least 2 subwoofers ) and the control center is a Denon AVR. I was all set on spending a lot more for the 2-channel system .. right now , I don't feel compelled... That is me. Several people here could relate to similar.

A few things that you will discover if you stay here.

• DAC are a solved problem. a $9.00 DAC is enough.. Seriously. You will find out that some of us have developed a passion for engineering excellence and would go for extraordinary measuring DACs... Thing is , The differences between the $100 DAC and the best we have measured so far.. are inaudible. Human beings, as currently configured, can't hear the (measured) differences.
• The same could be said about amplifers. These days , $1000 grant you a $200 W/channel , virtually transparent amplifier.
• Preamp? These days with most DACs able to push >2 Volts on their outputs, you don't need a preamplifier. That hasn't stopped some of us, here, to go for the last "0" of perfection and would use a low SINAD "preamp" between the DAC and the amps ...
• In the low bass the room dominates the response. so much that a speaker that is flat from 0 Hz to 20 Khz could present when put in a real-world room, peaks and valleys or more than 20 dB in the bass region.. Those are very much audible.. Very much... Thus in the low bass , you better use, Eq and DSP and IMHO , multiple subwoofers, unless some other methods are used. One of the most efficacious method is the cardioid bass drivers, controlled by DSP .. I am getting a bit ahead of myself but bear with me...
• Active speakers, that is speakers with their on-board amplifiers and often DACan, DSP and Equalizers are preferred here. There are some of the fans favorite here, that will do 20 Hz (real , measured) in a medium size room (20 square meter = 220 square-feet) with in plus or minus 3 dB ... Very few audiophiles systems of the subjective persuasion, can do that ... I would say that the cases are rare for such without EQ and DSP... Unfortunately the High End Audio side of the equation refuses to admit that EQ and DSP are necessary. They see EQ and DSP as evil, that are to to be avoided at all cost ( Funny enough that the cost is high and result in inaccurate systems)... then again they maintain that Vinyl is superior to CD ...

Now the problem is that you are somewhat committed or you were before coming here. Other will suggest many passive speakers that would be suitable for any music you play and, dare I say at any sane volume. I suggest to have a listen at the Kef R3. I would also suggest to add subwoofers to it. Controlled by something like a miniDSP 2 x 4 HD. A pair of SVS 2000 or Rythmik L12 with a pair of Kef R3 properly integrated could have you pleased to a degree you wouldn't think possible for such a modest outlay. It will wipe the floor with most High End audio systems you would have heard up to now... That is if the system is correctly integrated set-up, which I will warn you, takes time.. Not week, Months! Or you could have someone like @mitchco , who provides integrations services help you out. I am sure his services and the speakers and the subwoofers and the miniDSP 2 x 4 HD could cost less than the Mac, preamp...

Now, if you had the money available and not locked in your present system, I would have suggested a pair of Dutch and Dutch 8C, which by the way, is a complete audio system or for about the same price a pair of Kii Three. The 8C does 20 to 20,000 in a 220 square feet room and is capable of 105 dB at 35 Hz... that's loud bass . Both 8C and the Kii 3 are Living-Room friendly and superlative performers. Objectively and subjectively

Peace.

 

[rman9]

Hi

Again. I want to make sure that you don't feel belittled or uneased by our remarks. A bt about me. Less than 10 years ago, I was shopping/thinking about a $50,000 speakers (was actively scouring to score a killer deal on a used pair)... 'Today my system is evolving right, this system that was to be an HT-only is very satisfying, in 2-channel, even shocking. it covers 20 to 20 KHz at up to 100 dB at the listening position, about 2.5 meters from the speakers plane. The speakers are $500/pair, the subwoofers are $400 for the pair ( I believe in using at least 2 subwoofers ) and the control center is a Denon AVR. I was all set on spending a lot more for the 2-channel system .. right now , I don't feel compelled... That is me. Several people here could relate to similar.

A few things that you will discover if you stay here.

• DAC are a solved problem. a $9.00 DAC is enough.. Seriously. You will find out that some of us have developed a passion for engineering excellence and would go for extraordinary measuring DACs... Thing is , The differences between the $100 DAC and the best we have measured so far.. are inaudible. Human being as currently configured can't hear the (measured) differences.
• The same could be said about amplifers. These days , $1000 grant you a $200 W/channel , virtually transparent amplifier.
• Preamp? These days with most DACs able to push >2 Volt on their outputs, you don't need a preamplifier That hasn't stop some of us, here, to go for the last "0" of perfection and would use a low SINAD "preamp" between the DAC and the amps ...
• In the low bass the room dominates the response. so much that a speaker that is flat from 0 Hz to 20 Khz could present when put in a real-world room peaks and valleys or more than 20 dB in the bass region.. Those are very much audible.. Very much... Thus in the low bass , you better use Eq and DSP and IMHO , multiple subwoofers, unless some other methods are used. One of the most efficacious method is the cardioid bass drivers, controlled by DSP .. I am getting a bit ahead of myself but bear with me...
• Active speakers, that is speakers with their on-board amplifiers and often DAC and DSP and Equalizers are preferred here. There are som of the fans favorite here that will do 20 Hz (real , measured) in a medium size room (20 square meter = 220 square-feet) with in plus or minus 3 dB ... Very few audiophiles systems of the subjective persuasion, can do that ... I would say that the cases are rare for such without EQ and DSP... Unfortunately the High End Audio side of the equation refuses to admit that EQ and DSP are necessary. They EQ and DSP as evil, that are to to be avoided at all cost ( Funny enough that the cost is high and result in inaccurate systems)... then again they maintain that Vinyl is superior to CD ...

Now the problem is that you are somewhat committed or you were before coming here. Other will suggest many passive speakers that would be suitable for any music you play and, dare I say at any sane volume. I suggest to have a listen at the Kef R3. I would also suggest to add subwoofers to it. Controlled by something like a miniDSP 2 x 4 HD. A pair of SVS 2000 or Rythmik L12 with a pair of Kef R3 properly integrated could have you pleased to a degree you wouldn't think possible for such a modest outlay. It will wipe the floor with most High systems you would have heard up to now... That is if the system is correctly integrated set-up, which I will warn, you take time.. Not week, Months! Or you could have some one like @mitchco , who provides integrations services help you out. I am sure his services and the speakers and the subwoofers and the miniDSP 2 x 4 HD could cost less than the Mac, preamp... s

Now, if you had the money available and not locked in your present system, I would suggest a pair of Dutch and Dutch 8C, which by the way is a system or for about the same price a pair of Kii Three. The 8C does 20 to 20,000 in a 220 square feet room and is capable of 105 dB at 35 Hz... that's loud bass . Both 8C and the Kii 3 are Living-Room friendly and superlative performers. Objectively and subjectively

Peace.

I have to admit, a little unnerved being here.. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply with more details. I did invest in subs, dedicated for the 2 channel is a SVS pb 1000 pro and for the theater setup the SVS pb 2000 pro and an older Miller & Kreisel. I am quite happy with them. The main reason why I am so enamored with getting the C53 is the equalizer. Frankly, I feel audio is lifeless to my ears without tonal control. I am so fearful to bring benefits of equalization to my ears in this forum, I could be run out of town and rightfully so if I am violating audio purity.. One thing I have promised myself is to not fall in love with expensive cables and interconnects.. logic tells me, if I do true double blind testing, all the expensive equipment might just match or fail to live up to a modest system. Like I said, something flipped in me and I have been on this slippery slope for a little over six months now. Thanks again..

 

[FrantzM]

@rman9

We are the EQ-bunch here. We EQ everything. subs, Loudspeakers, especially headphones.. Again, welcome to the club, most of them are EQ-heads

 

[AdamG]

I have to admit, a little unnerved being here.. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply with more details. I did invest in subs, dedicated for the 2 channel is a SVS pb 1000 pro and for the theater setup the SVS pb 2000 pro and an older Miller & Kreisel. I am quite happy with them. The main reason why I am so enamored with getting the C53 is the equalizer. Frankly, I feel audio is lifeless to my ears without tonal control. I am so fearful to bring benefits of equalization to my ears in this forum, I could be run out of town and rightfully so if I am violating audio purity.. One thing I have promised myself is to not fall in love with expensive cables and interconnects.. logic tells me, if I do true double blind testing, all the expensive equipment might just match or fail to live up to a modest system. Like I said, something flipped in me and I have been on this slippery slope for a little over six months now. Thanks again..

Welcome Aboard @rman9.

 

[SKBubba]

The main reason why I am so enamored with getting the C53 is the equalizer. Frankly, I feel audio is lifeless to my ears without tonal control.

Maybe read up on DSP. It's the new modern way to do EQ, except with software. If you've been to a concert in the past 20 years, you have most likely listened to it.

A lot of DSP is geared towards "measure it, set it, and forget it" room correction applications like Dirac or Audyssey.

But, take a look at Roon software. They have extensive DSP capabilities built in. Even the room correction stuff. But for you, their built-in PEQ (per zone/endpoint, no less) might be of interest. PEQ goes way beyond 80s/90s EQ sliders and knobs, giving you far greater fine-tuned control to tweak all you want for your preference, on top of whatever DSP you are already doing for room correction.

I will also take this opportunity to plug "dynamic EQ" as found in Denon/Marantz amps/AVRs with Audyssey. There may be others. (I think Yamaha amps may have something similar with a "variable loudness" knob.) Dynamic EQ is like the loudness button on 70s amps, except smart. It adjusts itself based on volume, with more smiley face EQ when playing at lower volumes, gradually decreasing as you get louder. (At least that's my simple-minded understanding of how it works.) To me, this is a must have feature as your listening day progresses. And it's done with DSP.

 

[rman9]

@rman9

We are the EQ-bunch here. We EQ everything. subs, Loudspeakers, especially headphones.. Again, welcome to the club, most of them are EQ-heads

Awesome!! thanks.. I have a worn down an Optimus equalizer in the tape feedback monitor loop of the AV10 and recently got a DBx 31 band equalizer to the point of over doing, it doesn't sound natural anymore. So I have put them in boxes now .

 

[rman9]

Maybe read up on DSP. It's the new modern way to do EQ, except with software. If you've been to a concert in the past 20 years, you have most likely listened to it.

A lot of DSP is geared towards "measure it, set it, and forget it" room correction applications like Dirac or Audyssey.

But, take a look at Roon software. They have extensive DSP capabilities built in. Even the room correction stuff. But for you, their built-in PEQ (per zone/endpoint, no less) might be of interest. PEQ goes way beyond 80s/90s EQ sliders and knobs, giving you far greater fine-tuned control to tweak all you want for your preference, on top of whatever DSP you are already doing for room correction.

I will also take this opportunity to plug "dynamic EQ" as found in Denon/Marantz amps/AVRs with Audyssey. There may be others. (I think Yamaha amps may have something similar with a "variable loudness" knob.) Dynamic EQ is like the loudness button on 70s amps, except smart. It adjusts itself based on volume, with more smiley face EQ when playing at lower volumes, gradually decreasing as you get louder. (At least that's my simple-minded understanding of how it works.) To me, this is a must have feature as your listening day progresses. And it's done with DSP.

Last year, when I started to look for a good quality AVR, I was so set on getting the Rotel RAP 1580 because of it's PEQ feature, but then it turned out Rotel stopped making them and moved to the RAP MK II where they dropped it and went with some other feature similar to Audyssey. I gave up, ended up getting the Marantz 7705 and I am really happy with it's Audyssey and built in equalizer. But I use it for the theater setup. That brings me to the 2 channel stereo, and that's where the built in equalizer on the C53 seems so appealing..

 

[rman9]

Welcome Aboard @rman9.

Thank you!!