My experience with DIY and it's many frustrations that are not talked about.

[Ktacos]

The original poster have been back to ASR since August 15, 2023.

I'm the OP, I lost the login info for that account and also the email login to try and recover it, I honestly couldn't even recall the email used and my messages I sent to ASR to recover the account never got a response. I hope that's ok with the sites admin's (I'm not doing anything nefarious I quite literally just lost the info to get the account back, please don't ban me). They can delete the other account if they want.

Can we get back to the main topic of the Pit Viper not sounding good in its stock configuration and your measurements?

It doesn't sound good cause it's just not a good speaker, and the designer Paul Carmody has many speakers that don't match his sims at all, the overnight sensations being one of them. I have a few of his speakers and they're all just kind of average to poor in terms of driver integration. I rebuilt the speaker into a better 3 way and ran my own active filters. I've since built some other much better speakers and have basically written off any other designs that don't have full spinorama. Unfortunately I do believe most speaker designers out there are just plain bad at what they do and the community at large doesn't really seem to care.

I've kind of ducked out of DIY though because I accomplished what I wanted. I mean look at this in room response, doesn't get much better. None of the other speaker types I tried beat these and I'm convinced that a good neutral speaker with great dispersion is about the best humans can do at the moment. This is a $14 nd25fw, better than most drivers, which makes me wonder what are we even doing with all these other tweeters and exotic diaphragms, lining the pockets of driver manufacturers mostly.

I made several really good sounding speakers with great linearity, dispersion, and dynamaics. After that there just really does not seem like there is anywhere else to go and the hobby just felt like unecessary consumption to continue. I also desired to simplify my life a bit and currently just use some Kali LP6 V2 that I modded with bracing and dampening with some subs I built. DIY also just feels like a waste of time anymore, manufacturers are putting out crazy good stuff that doesn't cost much. The effort to build and analyze just isn't worth it to me at this point and I sort of stopped feeling a sense of accomplishment from my builds once I had the process down.

I attended some speaker competitions and they really just aren't for me.

I still have a 3 way I made with a friend who is on here to work out the passive xover for and after that who knows if I'll make anything else. Important to know when to take a break from something if you're not really having fun.

3 way I made with pit viper woofer. Wish I gone with a smaller mid, overall sounded fine but kind of forward due to the diffraction of the tweeter. They are kind of huge and I didn't like looking at them so I just kept the woofers out to use as subs.

 

[ParametricPi]

I think diy is still very viable, for several reasons. First is that doing something, trying things out, is a good way to get some practical experience and evaluations with a subject that I'm interested in. We can read books and read reviews, but actually building a sealed box and transmission line with the same woofer will allow to us to personally assess how sound is affected etc.

Second, we can recreate something that isn't available anymore, or not easily and affordable. For instance, you can't buy a new JBL Hartsfield or a Paragon, but you can build them. Or get a replacement or knock-off Klipsch K-33 woofer and build the bass section of the Klipsch corner horn.

Third, and my personal favourite, DIY doesn't have to be sold to average people. If you can live with outliers in one way or another, you have the opportunity to wield physics and engineering in favourable ways. I particularly enjoy building bass cabinets and while I've used drivers up to 15", my current pipe horn uses a 8" driver and it is pretty much the same in terms of sound quality. Granted, it takes a 4.8meter pipe length and the enclosure nearly reaches the ceiling. That's OK for me. I had fun tuning the horn, laying out the cabinet design to minimize resonances, made deliberate choices for building materials, amount and placement of damping etc. It's probably the best I've built. I think I spent about 125 euro for the driver and building materials. I upgraded my sub amp because I realised there was more potential still, and bought a cheap (but objectively good) Fosi ZA3 to drive it. It sounds better than a LOT of commercial powered sub setups I have heard, that all cost 5 to 10 times more. This is definitely a niche where DIY enables fantastic sound for significantly less cost.

I don't think I have spent that much money on my audio DIY stuff. I tend to spend a lot of time preparing a project on paper/screen. I often choose drivers and alignments based on curiosity, I simply want to know how something works, whether or not a certain feature would be of any benefit for me or not. So whatever the outcome, the end result is always a success. By approaching it that way, I have learned a lot. That alone was worth it to me. By now, after all that, I can design good speakers reliably.

 

[RonK]

I have seen this claimed several times over the years. Interestingly, 100% of the time it was claimed by an engineer.

I do think one can develop the knowledge base to churn out a decent speaker , maybe even a great speaker. I just don’t think mastery of these fields is likely without the education, training and experience of an engineer.

 

[a4eaudio]

I've heard of local clubs that meet to host lectures or "show and tell" of member projects. Parts Express hosts a speaker design competition. There's also the Midwest Audio Club--I thought they were mostly defunct, but they apparently just hosted a speaker competition in October. So there are some opportunities for direct interaction with others in the hobby.

But at the same time, I think it would be difficult to do a hands on workshop specifically for speaker building, similar to what you might find with woodworking. But that said, doing woodworking workshops and classes would provide a lot of value in terms of translating to speaker building.

Midwest Audio Club (MAC) typically has there DIY event in Iowa. As far as I know it hasn't missed a year in well over a decade, but I haven't been going that long so it could have missed a year (and probably didn't happen in 2020).

InDIYana, almost always in Fort Wayne, Indiana, has happened every year for well over a decade (excluding 2020 due to COVID).

CSS (used to be partnered with Meniscus before they closed up shop and in Grand Rapids) now in Detroit suburbs. Happens every year.

 

[a4eaudio]

I do think one can develop the knowledge base to churn out a decent speaker , maybe even a great speaker. I just don’t think mastery of these fields is likely without the education, training and experience of an engineer.

I know a lot of people who can design a great speaker. I know at least one of them is trained as an engineer.

 

[Ktacos]

JBL Hartsfield or a Paragon, but you can build them

Yeah that's kind of another part of DIY that bugs me, most stuff is just hilariously impractical and ugly. Most DIY designs wouldn't last a day in most peoples homes. A real challenge is to make something that someone can live with.

 

[a4eaudio]

Yeah that's kind of another part of DIY that bugs me, most stuff is just hilariously impractical and ugly. Most DIY designs wouldn't last a day in most peoples homes. A real challenge is to make something that someone can live with.

One of the reasons I got into DIY speakers is because I can make something nicer than most commercial stuff under $10k. But even if someone doesn't want to put the time into "furniture grade" speakers, while rattle-can spray paint is a pain, a flat black or flat white rattle-can speaker is probably as nice as the budget Elac, Polk, Klipsch, etc. speakers.

These speakers are $1,000 in drivers and crossover + $1,000 for the cabinets.

 

[Ktacos]

One of the reasons I got into DIY speakers is because I can make something nicer than most commercial stuff under $10k. But even if someone doesn't want to put the time into "furniture grade" speakers, while rattle-can spray paint is a pain, a flat black or flat white rattle-can speaker is probably as nice as the budget Elac, Polk, Klipsch, etc. speakers.

These speakers are $1,000 in drivers and crossover + $1,000 for the cabinets.

View attachment 409487

Yeah yours were probably the best looking ones at the show, but still lacks a bit of aesthetic something that gives away the diy part. My stuff is hardly any better in that regard.

I noticed the mids were cut, what did that do?

 

[Tim Link]

My take on DIY is if you are going to build something very similar to what's already available from professional producers, you're going to have a hard time coming up with anything better. You're going to make a two way bookshelf speaker with a waveguided dome tweeter and a matching woofer that's going to measure well on the Klippel? That's a fiercely developed and competitive market segment. Do it for fun. Get a custom look. Have something unique. Could still be worth the effort and sound good, even if you don't knock it out of the park sonically.

Those good speakers all basically sound the same to me. I can hear that the better ones are actually better, but the overall presentation is essentially the same as any other similarly configured speaker. Some are better than others at that sound. I have found repeatedly that when I take those speakers home and try them, I'm impressed, but overall less satisfied than my DIY monstrosities, which are going on 10 years now of continuous use. Maybe it's just the fact that they're different that pleases me. I can mess with them, change crossover settings, move the tweeters relative to the other drivers because they're modular like that. Over time I find configurations that greatly please me, at least in that particular room. I know some of their flaws and would like to make another attempt to correct them. But they please me as is, and what am I going to do with these if I build something new? They'll just probably end up in landfill when I could have saved money and kept on enjoying them for another couple decades, or however long I live.

 

[a4eaudio]

...
I noticed the mids were cut, what did that do?

I didn't have any clear coat on the speakers yet at SDC and the xo was completed the day before. They should be much improved by InDIYana 2025. But I won't take them to an event after that since they are so heavy.

The slices reduce the cone breakup and distortion - somewhat improving on-axis, but most importantly improving off-axis behavior significantly. Like the revelator "sliced" series. I tested last year on some $36 SB16PFCRs and it really did work well. But not something the average DIYer is going to want to do.

Here is the thread that inspired me...the sliced PM180-8 ended up in the Vapor Audio Derecho speakers that ran about $9,000 a pair. (Vapor is no longer around.)

 

[mikewxyz]

This thread is a cautionary tale to all new DIYers. The usual advice given was not heeded. 1) If your goal is great sounding speakers for cheap, just buy used commercial ones. 2) DIY is about building, learning and having fun. You are delusional if you think you can better the market leaders in terms of SQ - especially if you are new to this.

DIY kits are a great starting point although I agree with the OP that not all kit designers are equal, I believe you can equal commercial SQ with a proven design. Whether your creation is relegated to the basement or man cave depends on your furniture making skills.

In the end, it’s about having reasonable expectations.

 

[a4eaudio]

...2) DIY is about building, learning and having fun. You are delusional probably wrong if you think you can better the market leaders in terms of SQ - especially if you are new to this.

But if you put in the time, you almost surely can with a little practice.

I don't know what "market leaders" refers to. I don't think DIY can compete with commercial speakers under $200ish - the volume pricing on cheaper stuff is just too much for the DIYer to match. Maybe 10% of the remaining commercial stuff might be a challenge to better. But without the need to make profit margins, unless there is something quite unique, a good DIYer ought to be able to better the commercial speaker.

 

[mikewxyz]

@a4eaudio - you and I have discussed this topic in another thread about whether DIYers have the engineering wherewithal, design tools, measurement tools and other resources to compete with commercial enterprises. We’ll have to agree to disagree. It is my view that VERY few DIYers can better Genelec in their market. There are other examples.

BTW, your speakers look the business. Would love to hear how they sound.

 

[a4eaudio]

....BTW, your speakers look the business. Would love to hear how they sound.

Thanks! They look good (and took about two months to make). They sound....okay.
I have made 4 two-ways that sound good to very good (but not great). I have made 3 three-ways and they sound...just okay. I will keep working on them and keep trying to get better.

 

[Ktacos]

Those good speakers all basically sound the same to me.

This is another reason I haven't worked on much, my goal is generally to make very neutral speakers with very clean off axis response. Generally neutral speakers tend to sound the same, but also tend to sound the least like a speaker and can fool the brain pretty well. Once you nail a good neutral speaker, there's little point in making variations on that neutrality and deviations from that tend to start to sound wrong.

 

[a4eaudio]

My take on DIY is if you are going to build something very similar to what's already available from professional producers, you're going to have a hard time coming up with anything better.

I think there are two goals for DIYers, ignoring the factor if someone just likes the woodworking and time spent as a hobby - (1) build something better (for the same or maybe even a little more cost). This is probably applicable to the commercial speakers under $500-$1,000 a pair. Looking at Amazon this is Elac, Polk, Klipsch, Dali, Sony, etc.; or (2) build something as good, or even 90% as good, for 25-50% of the cost of the commercial speaker. This is the $1,000-$10,000 commercial speakers. After that you are getting into boutique cabinets which are going to be really hard for a DIYer and often don't sound that good anyways. Of course there are exceptions. There are some good speakers over $10k that would be hard to beat. Anything active like Neumann and Genelec and all those other good measuring active monitors. And KEF for the HiFi market with their coaxials that aren't available to DIYers.

Those good speakers all basically sound the same to me.

I have been going to DIY get-togethers for about 5 years but many of the regulars have been doing DIY 10, 15, 20 years. A familiar refrain is that 10 years ago a good share of the speakers were pretty bad but nowadays if there are 35 people there, 32 of them sound pretty good. And a lot of them sound very similar...sometimes people say this as a criticism, but to me it makes sense as there is more consensus about linearity, directivity, etc. and more and better tools available to DIYers.

 

[Tim Link]

I have been going to DIY get-togethers for about 5 years but many of the regulars have been doing DIY 10, 15, 20 years. A familiar refrain is that 10 years ago a good share of the speakers were pretty bad but nowadays if there are 35 people there, 32 of them sound pretty good. And a lot of them sound very similar...sometimes people say this as a criticism, but to me it makes sense as there is more consensus about linearity, directivity, etc. and more and better tools available to DIYers.

One thing I like about DIY is I can shoot for the standard goals, and then deviate from them in various ways to hear just what it does perceptually to the sound quality. There's a lot of "wrong" stuff that can sound pretty compelling. I like to push the crossover settings up or down from the optimal setting to hear how things fall apart. With a digital active crossover this can be done in real time. Sometimes it's surprising how far it can be moved without my being able to notice much of a change, assuming the drivers have the bandpass to do that. On one occasion I was astonished how much more I liked it when the woofer was pushed up too high so that it started to beam. That was supposed to sound bad, but it worked well in that situation. I left it like that for months before moving on to a new project. I never got tired of that sound, just wanted to try something new so I disassembled a fully satisfying setup to salvage the drivers.

 

[BoysRBackinTown]

One thing I actually wanna see more of is mods to existing commercial speakers. As was noted in the thread multiple times, you are going to have a difficult time beating commercial companies at their own game, but often times the difference between something very good and great is a few parts and smart design decisions. The Affordable Accuracy Monitor is the platonic ideal here: a solid and well-built budget speaker transformed into something brilliant with a bit of tinkering and some parts. Or even the Swan HiVi Sehlin mod. In the mic building world you see similar quality mods with the AKG Perception line. We can’t all be Dennis Murphy, but I think more mods along these lines would be both more accessible and ultimately more productive for a lot of people starting off in the DIY world.

 

[a4eaudio]

...As was noted in the thread multiple times, you are going to have a difficult time beating commercial companies at their own game, ...

I'd say this is more a result of the thread being on ASR which only has a thread dedicated to DIY. Go post the question on a DIY site and you'll get the opposite. And the truth is somewhere in between.

We can’t all be Dennis Murphy, but I think more mods along these lines would be both more accessible and ultimately more productive for a lot of people starting off in the DIY world.

This is an interesting point. As a DIYer, I don't have any commercial speakers. I may be the only one, but I'd find a thread dedicated to commercial speakers in need of a crossover mod interesting.

 

[neRok]

One thing I actually wanna see more of is mods to existing commercial speakers. As was noted in the thread multiple times, you are going to have a difficult time beating commercial companies at their own game, but often times the difference between something very good and great is a few parts and smart design decisions. The Affordable Accuracy Monitor is the platonic ideal here: a solid and well-built budget speaker transformed into something brilliant with a bit of tinkering and some parts. Or even the Swan HiVi Sehlin mod. In the mic building world you see similar quality mods with the AKG Perception line. We can’t all be Dennis Murphy, but I think more mods along these lines would be both more accessible and ultimately more productive for a lot of people starting off in the DIY world.

Maybe, but I would imagine that only lower end models would be suitable in cases where the manufacturer was limited by cost/marketing/etc. On higher end models, the manufacturer is more likely to implement "everything" (such as the perfect amount of bracing and DSP) because price is less of a concern. At the same time, a high end model is probably very aesthetically pleasing, so would you want to go making physical mods to it?

On this very topic, I've been meaning to start a thread about the LD System ICOA 12 speakers. They are a 12inch "coaxial" PA speaker at a reasonable price, but they do have some "problems" as seen in their EASE/GLL data. I wonder if they modified to be higher quality? There's plenty of scope for repositioning the mid-high driver if not constrained by the "portable" requirements of its current design.