Measurements of Switches - Is this worthy of a proper response in the form of a YouTube Video of Amir for example???

[totti1965]

and:

How a network switch affects audio playback - An extreme deep dive!

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alpha-audio.net

What I really like about the alpha-audio guys is that they sometimes do also comparisons between live music (piano and singer) and the recording of that music at the exact same place with nice studio speakers.

That reminds me of something I had heared in 1984 or 1985 at an audio show by „Deutsches HiFi Institut“: they made the comparison between live (Piano; Chamber Quartet) and the recording of a file taken 5 minutes before. Then they started the music again and the musicians faded sometimes during the piece out and they faded the recording in. I was 19 or 20 years old. After two or three switches between live and the recording I was not shure what I heared. I remember that one time I could have swear that I hear the recording of Wolf Harden, the pianist. But damn: it was just He, in Person, playing live!!!
One of the most remarkable audio experiences in my live!
The Speaker they used was the Cabasse Albatros V.
Two hours later they tried the same with Bigband-music and large JBL Everest or K2 or so speakers. But they failed. The Bigband had simply to much power, was to loud, when it plays in reality. Even the large Horn Speakers could not give the full dynamic that was needed.

But what I want to know is: Is this measuring of Alpha audio just rubbish or is it COMPLETE rubbish?

 

[staticV3]

Measurements of Switches - Is this worthy of a proper response in the form of a YouTube Video of Amir for example???

Do you mean a YouTube video like this?

 

[sam_adams]

Audiophile network switches—despite all the rubbish posted nearly everywhere extolling their virtues—have no effect whatsoever on the analog audio signal that comes out of your DAC or streaming device. The TCP/IP transmission protocols are robust enough that only under the most adverse of circumstances would the "network" be at fault. @amirm's video that @staticV3 just posted should dispel any concerns that you may have.

 

[totti1965]

It is because they claim they have found something much much much better than Amir’s Audio Precision APx555 (something in the 300 MHz range! ).
I am solely hoping for a new Amir video! I am longing for that! Amir has to do something!

 

[pseudoid]

Our Chief PinkPanther Herder, along with many others have extensively discussed noise influence on audio products, here at ASR.
We also have a few "snake Oil" threads here, that have nominated a few pricey network switches in replies.

Perhaps for some people 'unintended noise' elimination is either addictive and/or causes dopamine dump, which can be enjoybale.
Attempting to mitigate noise in any electronic/digital hardware may be a noble cause but only if warranted or you have excess money for buying noise insurance.
I may be a bit more noise-concerned than most 'audiophiles' but I am neither OCD or willing to part my wallet for noise insurance.

 

[sam_adams]

much better than Amir’s Audio Precision APx555 (something in the 300 MHz range! ).

Humans have no ability to "hear" anything in the RF spectrum. Whatever they are using to measure the "performance" of the network switches under test, has absolutely no bearing on the analog audio signal spectrum—20Hz to 20KHz—that humans can hear. I'm not going to give those people a "click" to watch their video; but I can assure you, whatever it is they are espousing, it's complete rubbish.

 

[totti1965]

Humans have no ability to "hear" anything in the RF spectrum. Whatever they are using to measure the "performance" of the network switches under test, has absolutely no bearing on the analog audio signal spectrum—20Hz to 20KHz—that humans can hear. I'm not going to give those people a "click" to watch their video; but I can assure you, whatever it is they are espousing, it's complete rubbish.

This is what they claim:

„To briefly summarize this long story about the influence of network switches on clock jitter: our measurements have shown that especially phase noise decreases with a decent switch that does not transmit much (common mode) low-frequency noise to the streamer. We see in our measurements a direct relationship between low-frequency noise from the network port and phase noise on the clock.“

The measurement results are behind the pay-wall, which is fine for me.
But you can stop the Beekhuyzen video at 8.45 min and at 9.10 min:
He claims, the phase noise at 10 Hz is 4.4 dB lower with the „better“ switch.

What the heck is „phase noise“?
Must I be afraid?

 

[sam_adams]

But you can stop the Berkhuisen video at 8.45 min and at 9.10 min:

Hans Beekhuyzen? Not until all the protons in the Universe dissolve would I even consider watching a video by that charlatan.

 

[sam_adams]

our measurements have shown that especially phase noise decreases with a decent switch that does not transmit much (common mode) low-frequency noise to the streamer.

The network stack in any OS does not transmit anything other than the data that is transmitted over the wire. Things like clock jitter and phase noise are resolved at the hardware layer and are not transmitted in any way as "data" to the application layer.

 

[totti1965]

Hans Beekhuyzen? Not until all the protons in the Universe dissolve would I even consider watching a video by that charlatan.

Ha ha! I just cited him because he leaked some of the „scientific“ results of the Alpha Audio guys. Is there a way to understand what they have measured?

 

[sam_adams]

Is there a way to understand what they have measured?

Nothing of what they may have "measured" at the network level is relevant to what comes out of the analog outputs of a DAC or a streamer. TCP/IP data transmission and signaling protocols handle all "digital" transmission errors—short of disconnecting the cable itself—at either the hardware layer or in the network stack of the OS.

 

[Blumlein 88]

“Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.” - George Bernard Shaw.

The BS Asymmetry Principle, also known as Brandolini’s Law, states that the amount of energy needed to refute BS is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.

More here:

Bullshit Asymmetry Principle

“Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.” - George Bernard Shaw. Shaw’s warning seems more pertinent than ever, as we face growing amounts of misinformation, conspiracy theories, and unsubstantiated rumours… or bullshit for short. That’s where this concept might help...

modelthinkers.com

 

[Hayabusa]

Nothing of what they may have "measured" at the network level is relevant to what comes out of the analog outputs of a DAC or a streamer. TCP/IP data transmission and signaling protocols handle all "digital" transmission errors—short of disconnecting the cable itself—at either the hardware layer or in the network stack of the OS.

they have measured the clock to the DAC. That is relevant if the jitter/phase noise is high enough.

 

[Hayabusa]

What the heck is „phase noise“?
Must I be afraid?

Phase noise is jitter but looking at it in the different way. Yes if high enough it can be audible.
It is very questionable is the differences levels presented here are audible, but he claims he can.
What is really missing is a (double) blind test of him showing he can.

 

[sam_adams]

they have measured the clock to the DAC. That is relevant if the jitter/phase noise is high enough.

The network "clocking" has nothing to do with USB "clocking" or any other "clocking" in any OS or system. Network data transmission has nothing to do with the data that is passed by the network stack to the os and then on to the audio subsystem.

 

[Hayabusa]

The network "clocking" has nothing to do with USB "clocking" or any other "clocking" in any OS or system. Network data transmission has nothing to do with the data that is passed by the network stack to the os and then on to the audio subsystem.

I know! This is what I would say also, but the video stated they measured a difference in DAC clock when changing something on the network

 

[pseudoid]

He states something a bout "a contaminated analog signal used to transmit the digital signal" 3 times:

Is he talking about RF transmission (analog?) of a digital signal? As in Phase Shift Keying (BPSK, QPSK, QAM)?
He also states he could clearly hear the difference within a second but cannot show this difference (he hears) with all the fancy equipment behind him.
He seems to imply jitter to be similar to phase noise, and uses them interchangably.
When a design uses a quadrature modulator for digital signal transmission, it can only get 4 (quad) key shifts (symbols at 90degrees apart) for transmitting the digital signal - in 4 relational- phases. "Phase noise" parameter/measurement is a critical part of signal integrity (and S/N ratio). This type of modulation is used mobile/cellular links.
What ever muons are in this Muon box and what ever circuit traces are used for clocking the internal digital signals (pre-post analog processing, if any) may in some alternate universe impact the noise-floor but to attribute difference in sound quality should be supported by measurement and not attributed to phase noise or jitter without substantiation.
ymmv

 

[sam_adams]

Is he talking about RF transmission (analog?) of a digital signal?

It's Hans Beekhuyzen. No one cares what he has to say.

 

[Hayabusa]

He states something a bout "a contaminated analog signal used to transmit the digital signal" 3 times:
View attachment 325613
Is he talking about RF transmission (analog?) of a digital signal? As in Phase Shift Keying (BPSK, QPSK, QAM)?
He also states he could clearly hear the difference within a second but cannot show this difference (he hears) with all the fancy equipment behind him.
He seems to imply jitter to be similar to phase noise, and uses them interchangably.
When a design uses a quadrature modulator for digital signal transmission, it can only get 4 (quad) key shifts (symbols at 90degrees apart) for transmitting the digital signal - in 4 relational- phases. "Phase noise" parameter/measurement is a critical part of signal integrity (and S/N ratio). This type of modulation is used mobile/cellular links.
What ever muons are in this Muon box and what ever circuit traces are used for clocking the internal digital signals (pre-post analog processing, if any) may in some alternate universe impact the noise-floor but to attribute difference in sound quality should be supported by measurement and not attributed to phase noise or jitter without substantiation.
ymmv

He measure phase noise on the DAC clock!
And yes: jitter in the time domain is phase noise in the frequency domain

 

[sam_adams]

I know! This is what I would say also, but the video stated they measured a difference in DAC clock when changing something on the network

Hans Beekhuyzen!