How do DSP Adjustments Effect The Sound

[Richx200]

I have been reading a lot about audio, sound, room correction, acoustics and what all technical jargon means. I understand enough to consistently make matters worse. So I run ARC Genesis, then REW looking for why the system just doesn't sound right. Then I try this adjustment and that adjustment, only to go back to the original ARC settings. I feel like I have been running around in circles, I know what the adjustments do, but not how they affect the sound. It finally dawned on me, wouldn't it be nice if, along with all the technical jargon, someone would explain how the adjustment effects the sound.

"If the ARC settings sound too lean or brittle, just turn up the bass and turn down the treble." I don't want to adjust all the bass or the treble, I just want to address the issue that is causing the notes not to sound right. It would be a great help if I knew what moving from 2nd to 4th order, extension, trim, room gain or how all the rest of the adjustments affected the sound. Better yet, what adjustments do I make to tighten the bass, get rid of muddy bass or ringing on certain notes? What changes need to be made for stereo and Dolby?

I could be moving around the speakers, trying different combinations of adjustments and acoustics treatments for years and still not get it right.

Is there such literature out there that explains how DSP setting effect the sound?

 

[Doodski]

I run ARC Genesis

I peeked at the ARC Genesis webpage a bit. Does it have parametric equalization?

 

[madrac]

Some of why the system doesn't sound right could be related to set-up (both subs & speakers) and/or room (reflections, etc.).
Cross over type (e.g. 2nd order to 4th order) impacts the slope of the roll-off. EG an 80 hz x-over 2nd order will roll over (reduce bass) slower than 4th order.
Extension in ARC is where it will perform the EQ. EG. if 200 hz, ARC will only match response to target up to 200 hz, if 5K, up to 5K, etc.
Trim - level of speaker (eg. how much boost/cut needed to hit the target level, e.g. 75 dB)
Room gain is how much the room impacts the low bass. With ARC, for movies, most set (if needed) to somewhere between 3-4; for music 2-3)

Have you looked at the Anthem documentation?

ARC Genesis | Advanced Settings: Adjust ARC Settings > Adjust Targets

www.anthemarc.com

Also, if you are on AVS Forum, reach out to @Yonettes. He has graciously reviewed close to 3000 ARC files for users and "tweaked" them to to improve the sound in many users systems. He will work with you - back and forth - on your system to address/make suggestions on any set-up issues with your system, as well as review/modify your ARC file. Note, he doesn't have a one size fits all solution - he customizes it for each user's system.

 

[madrac]

Although not for ARC Genesis, there are also a couple of tweaking guides on ARC 2 (the predecessor of Genesis with a bit less functionality) on hometheaterhifi.com by David Rich. I don't have the direct links to the on-line versions but do have copies saved (for both ARC 1 and ARC 2) - put them in my dropbox if you are interested.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[DVDdoug]

Disclaimer - My older entry-level AVR doesn't have automatic room correction and I've never used REW.

You might want the ARC to take care of the bass, or at-least take the 1st shot at it. If it's not telling you what it's doing, REW before & after can tell you. Bass room modes are "specific" and automatic correction should do a good job. It works best to knock-down the bumps. Boosting the dips doesn't work very well because it takes lots of power and big woofers to overcome soundwave cancelation.

Above a couple-hundred Hz, you might want to adjust by ear or just leave it alone.

 

[madrac]

ARC does a really good job on bass & blending with mains at the x-over.
One can use quick measure in ARC to measure what it is doing - you can toggle the ARC correction on/off.

 

[dualazmak]

As for at least optimization of subwoofer and woofer (plus other main SP system) combination, my recent post here and here would be of your reference and interest, I assume.

 

[Richx200]

I peeked at the ARC Genesis webpage a bit. Does it have parametric equalization?

The ARC EQ is set within the software and cannot be targeted but can be adjusted by minimum/maximum.

 

[Richx200]

Some of why the system doesn't sound right could be related to set-up (both subs & speakers) and/or room (reflections, etc.).
Cross over type (e.g. 2nd order to 4th order) impacts the slope of the roll-off. EG an 80 hz x-over 2nd order will roll over (reduce bass) slower than 4th order.
Extension in ARC is where it will perform the EQ. EG. if 200 hz, ARC will only match response to target up to 200 hz, if 5K, up to 5K, etc.
Trim - level of speaker (eg. how much boost/cut needed to hit the target level, e.g. 75 dB)
Room gain is how much the room impacts the low bass. With ARC, for movies, most set (if needed) to somewhere between 3-4; for music 2-3)

Have you looked at the Anthem documentation?

ARC Genesis | Advanced Settings: Adjust ARC Settings > Adjust Targets

www.anthemarc.com

Also, if you are on AVS Forum, reach out to @Yonettes. He has graciously reviewed close to 3000 ARC files for users and "tweaked" them to to improve the sound in many users systems. He will work with you - back and forth - on your system to address/make suggestions on any set-up issues with your system, as well as review/modify your ARC file. Note, he doesn't have a one size fits all solution - he customizes it for each user's system.

Thank you, I think I need to go through my procedure and problem more closely.

Equipment:
Anthem MRX 1140
Anthem PVA-7 (powers the fronts)
Matrix Elemental I
Zidoo Z10 Pro
Speakers
Front - (2) Focal Aria 936,
Center - (1) Focal CC900,
Surround & Back - (4) Focal 300IW6
Ceiling - (4) Klipsch CDT-5200-CII (mid & back)
Subs - (2) SVS SB-13 Ultra (both upgraded to the new 1200 watt amp with app settings)

ARC Setup:
Speaker placements laser measured; all maxed (angles, toe in, SPL 70db etc.)
Mic placement 8 positions all marked and laser measured start at MLP
Of the four profiles, two for Atmos 1 close Mic & 1 wide mic and the same for Stereo
Don't have a laptop (desktop) so I have to walk back and forth 32 times 4 profiles X 8 positions
Check settings, adjust Max EQ from 5k to 500 Hz (don't like ARC EQ messing with the speakers FR above 500 Hz)
Load settings into MRX 1140

ARC results (see attached) I don't expect anyone to critique my results, I'm just showing what I have to work with.

Evaluation:
For Atmos, I run Blu-ray True HD and watch/listen to results also, use Dolby Atmos test files
Stereo is much more of a process because I care more about music.
I only listen to 94/24–192/24 and DSD 256 for accuracy during evaluation
Listen to all types of music:

One example is the FREE HDtracks 2024 Hi-Res Sampler [192kHz · 24bit] at https://www.hdtracks.com, check it out.

I listen for envelope, stage, timbre, accuracy, musical blend, clarity (are vocals, strings, wind, along with percussion all playing together in harmony)
can I identify all the instruments, and can I keep time with each instrument, do they sound real?

What I what to do is be able to look at all the adjustments available to me and understand how each one changes the sound or structure of the music.
Which one will tighten the bass (make the kick bass have a little more snap) or shorten the decay of an acoustic guitar etc.

I do realize that much of this is due to how the music was recorded, but I'll never know if I don't know how to adjust it.


P.S why are the phase in 2 subs profile 3 set so far apart; they both sit on the front wall 7' apart, same distance from the side walls?

 

[terryforsythe]

Above a couple-hundred Hz, you might want to adjust by ear or just leave it alone.

In my opinion, either leave it alone above 200 Hz, or tune to a target curve while measuring the frequency response from the listening position.

There may be some people that can tune by ear, e.g., those who are trained listeners. But, the vast majority of people are not trained listeners.

In the past I have tried equalizing by ear. It might sound fine for the songs I listened to while tuning, but later on another song plays and it does not sound right. For a long time now I have been using frequency response measurements when tuning. It works very, very well, and REW is free (though a donation is appreciated). A UMIK-1 microphone is adequate and reasonably priced (somewhere around $100, or $135 with shipping directly from MiniDSP).

 

[madrac]

ARC Setup:

Mic placement 8 positions all marked and laser measured start at MLP
Of the four profiles, two for Atmos 1 close Mic & 1 wide mic and the same for Stereo

I am assuming close and wide mic are for number of people (e.g. close = optimized for you at your MLP; wide to cover a wider range of people/seats)? If so, I don't think this is necessary as a second set of measurements is usually taken for a change to the environment (e.g. door opened/closed; screen up/down; etc.)

Why 8 positions, particularly for the "close" mic, assuming my assumption above is correct? I don't think in that situation you'll improve the solution from ARC - 5 is usually sufficient. I can see adding more if you've got multiple seats / wider area you want to cover...perhaps the first 5 as with the close position, then a few more for the "outer" seats.

What I what to do is be able to look at all the adjustments available to me and understand how each one changes the sound or structure of the music.
Which one will tighten the bass (make the kick bass have a little more snap) or shorten the decay of an acoustic guitar etc.

Can any room correction program do something like this? AFAIK, all generally just try to correct for peaks/dips in response versus a target, equalize volume level of speakers, and "un-muddy" bass, although the latter is more influenced in choice of sub vendor and placement. Not sure any parameters in ARC would impact delay - wouldn't room treatments be more effective for that?

 

[Richx200]

I am assuming close and wide mic are for number of people (e.g. close = optimized for you at your MLP; wide to cover a wider range of people/seats)? If so, I don't think this is necessary as a second set of measurements is usually taken for a change to the environment (e.g. door opened/closed; screen up/down; etc.)

Why 8 positions, particularly for the "close" mic, assuming my assumption above is correct? I don't think in that situation you'll improve the solution from ARC - 5 is usually sufficient. I can see adding more if you've got multiple seats / wider area you want to cover...perhaps the first 5 as with the close position, then a few more for the "outer" seats.



Can any room correction program do something like this? AFAIK, all generally just try to correct for peaks/dips in response versus a target, equalize volume level of speakers, and "un-muddy" bass, although the latter is more influenced in choice of sub vendor and placement. Not sure any parameters in ARC would impact delay - wouldn't room treatments be more effective for that?

The 8 positions was chosen for this set up because I already did 5, and I thought that 8 might be more accurate.

I'm still learning the limitations of ARC Genesis and effects the settings have on the overall sound. Maybe it might be better to remove ARC from the stereo speakers and plugin a good DSP.

But, right now, I'm very happy with the performance of the system (really sounds good). Most would say it is time to put away the brush, but I'm curious if it could be better? It's like having a car that does 190 mph; you have all the tools, can you make the car do 200 mph? What happens if I tune it up (Besides blowing up)

I have no intentions of replacing any of the equipment (will maybe add a DSP) a box of watts and $500 wonder cable will not happen. I just would like to better understand what changes to the sound are made when I adjust the settings.

Cannot use acoustic treatments; wife would kick my ass if I started gluing foam on the walls. Gotta keep everything on the down low

 

[madrac]

IMO, 5 positions is more than adequate, at least in my situation as I'm only worried about my seat. I've tried 7 in the past but didn't hear it adding anything.

As mentioned above, reach out to @Yonettes on AVSForum - he's a master at tweaking ARC files and will work with you to optimize your system with ARC.