High end headphones?, Audiophile woo or just highly overhyped

[solderdude]

BT headphones all need very efficient and low power rated drivers, which limits the choice of Chinese OEM drivers) and ANC relies on cheap mics and electronics and low battery power and is limited in received SQ. The headphones have to be closed and there is very little acoustic space in there (battery, electronics).
Then there is the price point that has to be low to be successful.
They are intended for the mobile youth that hates wires, most of them are not intended for the 'hifi' crowd.
It's amazing the more expensive ones can even sound reasonably good.

 

[MayaTlab]

BT headphones all need very efficient and low power rated drivers and ANC relies on cheap mics and electronics and low battery power and is limited in received SQ. The headphones have to be closed and there is very little acoustic space in there (battery, electronics).
Then there is the price point that has to be low to be successful.

Agreed but we've already had better measuring BT headphones than the current crop of ANC BT high-end ones, some ANC BT headphones actually measure pretty well (Beats Solo Pro for example - and it's among the cheapest these days), and with some brands (Sony) it's actually the cheapest ones that tend to have the better FR curves. So I still think that it still mainly is a case of misguided and erroneous product design ("young people like big baaaaaasssssss" or "who cares if it sounds like sh...t the brand will carry the sales anyway") rather than only inherent technical / cost / manufacturing limitations.
That being said what you wrote is definitely the reason why I'm not hoping for much from traditional audio companies or boutique manufacturers in that regard. In regards to mics for example, the AirPods Pro's rely on fairly novel ones (https://www.systemplus.fr/wp-conten...neon-SDM-MEMS-in-Goertek-Microphone_flyer.pdf) and I'm not sure that other companies could have had quite as easy an access to these as Apple. And that's not even getting into computational audio where they won't stand a chance in the long run.

 

[Dreyfus]

Yamaha introduced its "Listening Optimizer" feature just recently. Their marketing mentions things like different head and ear shapes and the tonal discrepancies following those. Sadly, no clearly defined words about how their technology could potentially offer any solution for those issues. Maybe they try to compensate for the actual transfer function of the individual ear. Maybe its just a rough seal (bass) and loudness control. Who knows ...

Hope to see more advanced DSP solutions in the future. Maybe we will have a next-gen HD 800 with auto-EQ some day.

 

[MayaTlab]

Hope to see more advanced DSP solutions in the future. Maybe we will have a next-gen HD 800 with auto-EQ some day.

Massive speculation here but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that in their labs Apple has already modified a number of HD800 with structured light sensors (something akin to Face ID - the large ear cup is ideal for optical sensors) to make a rough image of the listener's ears and then produce a personalised HRTF profile by matching know HRTF profiles vs. ear shape data to the user's ear shape with neural networks. All of the tech mentioned here has already been the subject or research papers or patents by Apple or other companies, the huge difficulty being turning this into a palatable consumer product.

Most detailed patents however simply mention the use of capacitance sensors to identify some of the ear's features to distinguish the left from the right ear and maintain touch controls's orientation relative to the head despite varying orientation of the headphones relative to the head. One among others : https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageN...0555066.PN.%26OS=PN/10555066%26RS=PN/10555066

 

[solderdude]

In regards to mics for example, the AirPods Pro's rely on fairly novel ones (https://www.systemplus.fr/wp-conten...neon-SDM-MEMS-in-Goertek-Microphone_flyer.pdf) and I'm not sure that other companies could have had quite as easy an access to these as Apple. And that's not even getting into computational audio where they won't stand a chance in the long run.

The microphones need to be as close as possible to the driver in order to work properly as MFB device. The encountered problem here is that when you do you basically only compensate the vibrations of the middle of the driver and does nothing for cone break-up, resonances etc. nearer to the edge.
If MFB would have worked really well all speakers would already have been fitted with accelero meters etc. Practical issues prevent this from happening and limits the FR range that can be compensated to about 1kHz or so while most problem areas that causes sound degradation are higher. Tonal balance and distortion in lows and mids and bass extension of course all can benefit.
At least when low noise circuits and mics are used. Some of the cheaper NC's have audible hiss. Only more expensive ones may be better in this aspect.

The Deva is an example of a more sensible NC/BT thingy. Only possible with high efficiency planar drivers though.

Techniques will improve over time.
Still... when one objectively looks at an old design like the HD600 the improvements made over time are not huge. Wireless of course has made some leaps and will continue to do so. Those that think they can hear hi-res (>48kHz files) shouldn't be using BT though.

 

[bluefuzz]

All of the tech mentioned here has already been the subject or research papers or patents by Apple or other companies, the huge difficulty being turning this into a palatable consumer product.

The latest version of Sony's Headphone app for their noise cancelling WH1000 series 'phones has an option to photograph your ears to make a personalised HRTF. I haven't tried it yet, but the WH1000X2 I have sound pretty good through the app using noise cancelling on public transport. Not so good without the app in a desktop setup.

 

[Dreyfus]

the huge difficulty being turning this into a palatable consumer product.

That is indeed the crux with all innovations. Also, they won't hit the (mass) market unless they are profitable.

Really sad to see that some companies waste their resources on developing simplified photogrammetry apps which will be EOL after two or three years anway due to ongoing maintenance costs. The day they decide to shut down the service, customers will be left alone with a badly designed headphone which will sound even worse when the "calibration" does not work anymore. IMO the obsolesence of "smart" technology and their digital interfaces - which are often accompanied by halfhearted designs of the actual physical product (which once was a well respected pioneering field) - is the biggest breaking point of the consumer market today.

Will be interesting to see how the HiFi market will deal with those circumstances in the future. Sooner or later they will have to open up to digital implementations, as well.

 

[Robin L]

Since I got on this forum I've read plenty of good advice regarding headphones. Solderdude has been exceptionally helpful. I've been looking at the Diy Heaven site of his for a few years. Seems like all roads lead to Sennheiser 6XX, one way or another. I own the cheaper 5XX 'phones, the HD 579 and 599 'phones. Considering how close they are in design to the 600 series it's weird how they clearly underperform compared to Drop's HD 6XX. I only last week stumbled across the Apo set of equalizers online. Based on reviews by Amirm I got the Topping E/L 30 stacklette.

30 years ago I managed to get my hands [and ears] on the Stax Signature/SRM-T1 earspeakers and energizer/amplifier. Compared to anything else I heard at the time, the Stax gear was the best. Pricey too, $2000 for headphones is big money for headphones now, was much bigger money 30 years ago. I guess I'm working with unreliable memory here, but the Topping/Drop combo has similar qualities in the mids and upper registers and performs with much more authority in the lower registers. For $1500 less, though I suspect the current iteration of my Stax combo is considerably more expensive now than 30 years ago.