HDCD DACS

[AudioStudies]

So it appears that in my situation, HDCD is a big nothingburger!

Well it would have been very close to a nothing burger just because you only had 4 CDs. Could it have been a nothing burger because of the software process involved you used for duplication? If so, that would argue in favor of seeking after hardware for those with a larger collection of HDCDs. I have heard both pros and cons regarding the use of HDCD hardware, the con being the -6db that you mention, but the pro being better digital filtering even on the non-HDCD discs. But as Mani pointed out the discs that are genuine HDCDs were made on the best equipment in the world at the time (or maybe ever), so owning the discs even if you use them without HDCD is clearly a good thing. I am sticking with hardware and the argument that the hardware won't be around in 20 years could make my hardware more valuable. Or I could just have a bunch of worthless CD players with broken lasers.

 

[AudioStudies]

The EAD DSP 7000 DACs will not handle 24 bit, as they are 20 bit Burr Brown DACs designed with plenty of headroom to handle 16bit 44.1 kHz though. I also have some EAD (Enlightened Audio Designs) surround sound processors that have 24 bit DACs and are equipped with HDCD, but 24/96 material cannot be fed to them, as the 24 bit was used to accomplish Dolby Digital and DTS and as headroom for 16 bit 44.1 kHz material.

Some in the audio world are convinced that the 20-bit Burr Brown DAC used in the DSP 7000 and its big brother the DSP 9000 are the most musical DACs ever produced. I know many people also scoff at that notion because of the age of the chip and comparing jitter in that chip versus modern chips. Both of my 7000s had a plethora of upgrades done at Noble Electronics, the sole remaining EAD dealer. Clearly, the chip didn't get upgraded though.

Where I am at with my 7000s is that I can easily live with the SNR or what I would guess the SINAD to be. Where I get caught is worrying about jitter. I have heard it said that some jitter can be attributable solely to the receiving end. If this is true, very good transports or cables are not likely to help. Noble Electronics makes a digital cable that was specifically designed to reduce jitter when used with these EAD DACs. The price is high, and I have my doubts that any high end cable would make much of a difference. The primary transport that I use right now is my Aurender N200 server. It plays the WAV files with un-decoded HDCD material. I have on order (on its way to me) and AudioLab 9000CDT, that both spin discs and play from USB thumb drives. We will see how this all turns out. Truth be told, I may never part with these DSP 7000s . . .

 

[manisandher]

Some in the audio world are convinced that the 20-bit Burr Brown DAC used in the DSP 7000 and its big brother the DSP 9000 are the most musical DACs ever produced.

The UltraAnalog D20400 DAC chips are very nice-sounding. The PM Model One/Two used one per channel.

Mani.

 

[AudioStudies]

So is it somewhat of a consensus that the PMD200 was best and PMD100 second best? Or should there be other factors when shopping for an HDCD player or DAC? What makes those chips excel above the others?

 

[AudioStudies]

At the Dutch Audio Classics site, I found the following info for my Enlightened Audio Design Theater Master Signature:

EAD TheaterMaster Signature
6 x PCM1702-K + 3 x PMD100
D/A converter

And for the DSP 7000 Series III DAC:
2 x PCM63P-K - PMD100 - CS8412-CP

So it appears that I am already at the PMD100 level. Perhaps I should just enjoy the music and not go DAC hunting.

 

[AudioStudies]

The unit that was just shipped to me is equipped as follows:
California Audio Labs Icon mk II HDCD (Power Boss)
2 x PCM1702 - PMD100

 

[AudioStudies]

Does anyone know much about the Cary Audio CD-500 that provides HDCD decoding. It has 192 kHz, 24 bit Burr Brown 1792u DAC chips (according to DutchClassics). I haven't seen anywhere that it has either the PMD 100 or PMD 200. But with respect to jitter it looks like it might be a step up from where I am at. Is the 1792u a highly regarded chip? Or would I be going downhill?

Also, I would like opinions about Cary in general, quality of their gear, and durability.

 

[AudioStudies]

What is the thinking about how well the Oppo Blu Ray players implemented HDCD? How does their implementation compare with stand alone CD players?

 

[AudioStudies]

The AudioLab CDT9000 arrived recently, and there was some very exciting news when I hooked it up. It will feed HDCD signals from both USB and the CD transport !!!! The transport thing really surprised me . . .

 

[bsdinis]

I didn't read the whole original post, but you can decode 16-bit HDCD files into a 24-bit PCM stream with most audio players, I use foobar2000 with the HDCD Decoder component.

 

[AudioStudies]

I didn't read the whole original post, but you can decode 16-bit HDCD files into a 24-bit PCM stream with most audio players, I use foobar2000 with the HDCD Decoder component.

Yes, possible to do in dbPoweramp also, which I use and am more familiar with, although some controversy about the best way to do it dbPoweramp and also controversy about whether this process is as effective as decoding with hardware outside of the computer realm, particularly if the hardware has the PMD200 chip. Or perhaps the successor to the PMD200 which to the best of my knowledge, only Berkeley Audio Designs has available (at a pretty penny). Also, I have hundreds of HDCD albums in 16bit WAV format, so just from a time savings perspective it is easier for me to move forward with hardware, not spend a whole lot of time doing conversions.

 

[bsdinis]

Yes, possible to do in dbPoweramp also, which I use and am more familiar with, although some controversy about the best way to do it dbPoweramp and also controversy about whether this process is as effective as decoding with hardware outside of the computer realm, particularly if the hardware has the PMD200 chip. Or perhaps the successor to the PMD200 which to the best of my knowledge, only Berkeley Audio Designs has available (at a pretty penny). Also, I have hundreds of HDCD albums in 16bit WAV format, so just from a time savings perspective it is easier for me to move forward with hardware, not spend a whole lot of time doing conversions.

You do not need to convert anything... foobar2000 will decode the 16-bit HDCD files as if they were 24-bit files...

 

[AudioStudies]

You do not need to convert anything... foobar2000 will decode the 16-bit HDCD files as if they were 24-bit files...

I would need a learning curve to learn foobar, which I have never used. In dbPoweramp, I am not a real high powered user, I primarily just use it to rip my CDs. So there would be somewhat of a learning curve to do it there. I suppose if there were some way to do it batch style, and not with each individual album in dbPoweramp, it might be worth investigating. But I have a great many DACs in various systems, some from home audio equipment, some from the pro market. Some of the older DACs do not do 24 bit. So then I would have to dither down the 24 bit back to 16 bit for things to be compatible for me everywhere. I think for now, I will just stick with the hardware. But thanks for the suggestions.

 

[AudioStudies]

Well, I am keeping all options on the table at the moment with regard to HDCD hardware. Here is a summary:

1. Stay with the EAD equipment that I have, for use in more than one system, a couple of DSP 7000 III DACs and a couple of EAD Theatermaster processors (using as a DAC to decode HDCD).
2. Try to find a used Berkeley Audio Design (BAD) Alpha DAC, but the question remains which one. @manisandher - I saw on another forum wherein you thought Berkeley was using off the shelf Analog Devices DACs and I think that was in reference to the Alpha Series I Reference DAC. I assume they use the AD DAC in conjunction with some sort of digital filter a successor to the PMD200 that I don't even know the model number. Does anyone know if BAD used off the shelf AD DACs in all of their DACs, such as the earlier non-reference series - perhaps something like the Alpha 2 non-reference that I may be able to afford on the used market. Also does anyone know more about the successor(s) to the PMD200, how many there were and what the model #s are?
3. Stick with more modern equipment that doesn't have the PMD200 or the PMD100. The Emotiva ERC-3 obviously has less jitter than my old EAD equipment, but there is controversy about how well they implemented HDCD and I could never get it to forward an HDCD signal to an outboard DAC. Other modern equipment to consider would be the Oppo 105 Blu Ray player, although that brings in the issues of it not being a dedicated CD player and whether such a jack of all trades would be less than ideal. Clearly, the Oppo would have less jitter than the old EAD equipment though and it can forward an HDCD signal to an outboard DAC.
4. Stay on the hunt for an older DAC with the PMD200 digital filter. If I rule out tube equipment and rule out CD players and focus solely on stand-alone DACs the list will be pretty damn short. I don't really need a transport because I have that very well covered with both my Aurender server and my Audiolab CDT9000 transport, both of which forward HDCD wonderfully. Any thoughts on which are best of the short list of DACs that incorporated the PMD200?

Thanks Everyone

 

[AudioStudies]

I found a thread wherein Amir had tested an Oppo 105. Although it tested well in other areas -- poor linearity was noted when using it as a USB DAC. There was some evidence (from other reviewers) that it performed better via the SPDIF inputs. It is unclear whether the unit Amir reviewed was a problematic unit or whether all 105s would be expected to perform that way. I owned a 105 a few years ago and solid it. However, I just bought another one. I put a Topping D10s in-between my computer and my Oppo 105, enabling me to feed the coax input of the Oppo. Everything sounds fine when playing both audio and videos from Plex. Also, sounds great when spinning HDCD discs. I may try using the 105 as a DAC fed from the Audiolab DCT9000 transport for HDCD.

 

[AudioStudies]

What does jitter ACTUALLY sound like? (jitter test tracks)

The following website has some simulated jitter test tracks: What does jitter ACTUALLY sound like? There are seven versions of each sample. Three have periodic jitter, three have random jitter, and one is the original - untouched. In the samples we have 2µs (microseconds), 4µs, 8µs, 16µs...

www.audiosciencereview.com

New thread about jitter makes me think that I may be worried for nothing about the age of my EAD DACs with respect to jitter.

 

[AudioStudies]

@Blumlein 88 - I know you are a smart guy, and I sure hope you are right about jitter being pretty much of a non-problem. It would make my equipment decisions much easier . . .

 

[Swtoby]

Another CD player in production that supports HDCD is from Spectral:

Spectral Audio - Digital Sources | Goodwins High End

Spectral Audio SDR-4000SV CD Player, High End Audio

goodwinshighend.com

The Berkeley and the Spectral share the same designer, I believe. The Spectral is also not cheap at $26,000.

 

[AudioStudies]

Another CD player in production that supports HDCD is from Spectral

This is very interesting and exciting news to see that Keith Johnson is still around and designing in audio. Spectral is out of my league financially unless my ship comes in. However, I found some of the literature fascinating. I wonder if it throws any wrinkles into the discrete vs op-amp debate. If my ship does come in, Spectral may be the first thing that I buy . . .

 

[AudioStudies]

If the jitter of the PCM63 (20 bit Butt Brown) is not of concern, that is great news. Yet my EAD gear has the PMD100 rather than the more advanced digital filter the PMD200. I can always find a reason to get the upgrade bug . . .