Denon DP-400 Turntable has no treble

[JP]

As I understand it, the first step of setting VTF is getting the counterweight aligned so that the tonearm hovers parallel to the platter/record, right? That's what my manual says and what every video I've found says. Once I did that, then I set the VTF, which according to Analogis is 1gram for this stylus, but most people recommend 1.25g, so I tried both and 1.25 seemed to sound better.

It doesn't have to be perfectly level when you balance it, just close. Just to confirm, after balancing, you're moving the scale to 0 without moving the CW, and then rotating the CW to ~1.25? Asking because your latter picture makes it look like the cart is riding abnormally low.

 

[BullBuchanan]

It doesn't have to be perfectly level when you balance it, just close. Just to confirm, after balancing, you're moving the scale to 0 without moving the CW, and then rotating the CW to ~1.25? Asking because your latter picture makes it look like the cart is riding abnormally low.

Correct. In the last picture I sent the arm was resting on the tone arm lift.

 

[BullBuchanan]

Whilst I am doubtful the 'in-built' pre amp is going to provide Super Hi end audiophile quality, I am thinking as others have suggested, utilizing it, may be a better option. Although, that said, it seems the Original cartridge (as fitted), to this Denon was the Denon 9410037907 see here: https://denon.encompass.com/item/12429230/Denon/00D9410037907/ which may actually have been manufactured by Audio Technica and has similar specs to the AT91.

Also, I think the issue may be as suggested previously, an incorrect Capacitance or Load issue.
From what I can ascertain, the Original Cartridge wanted to see a load capacitance of 100-200 pF and a load impedance of 47,000 ohms.
The suggested AT95 series has Identical Load requirements to the Original Cartridge.

Shure’s recommended capacitive load for the M91E and M91ED is in the range of 400-500 pF !! I'm not sure about it's desired impedence but is probably similar.

It's probably safe to assume the 'in-built' pre amp is providing an input for the Original cartridge that is ideally suited and happy with, whereas Not so with the Shure.
Difficult to say What Load variance would be seen when switching the in-built EQ module Off AND what loads Your amplifiers Phono Input would be providing.

BTW, I'm 68 and I used to sell the Shure M91, Way back when I used to sell HiFi in my late teens and early 20's !! and whilst acceptable, it was not that spectacular, or note worthy lol there were Many better cartridges.

It may be best (as others have suggested) to 'Ditch' the Shure and get an Audio Technica that will be Happy 'Seeing' the in-built pre amp
You'll probably get Good Money for the Shure on Ebay

What Amp are you using ??

I'm using a Denon x3700h - while it rates very well as an amplifier according to Amir's measurements here, there's almost no info from denon or 3rd parties ont he performance or specs of the phono stage.

How do you like to go about determining the capacitance you're working with on a given cart? If a 3rd party stylus is used, as in mine, does that impact the capacitance at all?

 

[jmchrislip]

I only know when I use my M91ED without adding capacitance it sounds muffled and very dull. With the additional capacitance, as recommended by SHURE, it sounds full and lush. Beautiful bass, mids and highs.

If you don't want to hear the M91ED the way the manufacturer recommends, then get a cartridge that doesn't require additional capacitance above 200pf. REMEMBER, the SHURE, EMPIRE, etc., like many other phono cartridges of that time, required additional capacitance. Newer cartridges don't require as much capacitance.

Enjoy whatever cartridge you choose, but the manufacturers of that time required much different loading than now.

 

[DVDdoug]

How do you like to go about determining the capacitance you're working with on a given cart?

Sometimes the preamp manufacturer publishes the specs, sometimes not. But there is unknown capacitance in the turntable wiring and the cables. Adding a longer cable will add capacitance. It's usually also unknown but cables have a certain capacitance per-foot. (A longer cable may also pick-up more hum.)

And the cartridge manufacturer should publish the recommended capacitance.

If a 3rd party stylus is used, as in mine, does that impact the capacitance at all?

No, but they can both affect frequency response so with a different stylus it might be optimized with different capacitance.

But from my experience, years ago in the vinyl days, records varied a lot. ...And I was always foolishly upgrading, or wanting to upgrade and I thought my system wasn't "good enough" if I had to adjust the tone controls. Then I got a CD player and gave-up on trying to "perfect" analog, eventually replacing (or digitizing) all of my records, and giving-up on vinyl altogether.,

 

[jmchrislip]

I'm using a Denon x3700h - while it rates very well as an amplifier according to Amir's measurements here, there's almost no info from denon or 3rd parties ont he performance or specs of the phono stage.

How do you like to go about determining the capacitance you're working with on a given cart? If a 3rd party stylus is used, as in mine, does that impact the capacitance at all?

The manufacturer always includes a spec sheet showing what tracking force, VTF and loading. Third party styli doesn't affect the required capacitance.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Yes it does very much. The mechanical resonance will likely be very different in a 80s stylus and a present production replacement. The total response in the sum of the mechanical and electrical response.

Example of load tuning a cartridge from 1979 with present day replacement stylus .

 

[jmchrislip]

Hey guys, use whatever cartridge you want. If it sounds like crap well it must be:

The stylus is dirty, the turntable cartridge alignment, bad stylus anything but the recommended loading by the manufacturer!

LOL!!!!!!!

 

[BullBuchanan]

Sometimes the preamp manufacturer publishes the specs, sometimes not. But there is unknown capacitance in the turntable wiring and the cables. Adding a longer cable will add capacitance. It's usually also unknown but cables have a certain capacitance per-foot. (A longer cable may also pick-up more hum.)

And the cartridge manufacturer should publish the recommended capacitance.


No, but they can both affect frequency response so with a different stylus it might be optimized with different capacitance.

But from my experience, years ago in the vinyl days, records varied a lot. ...And I was always foolishly upgrading, or wanting to upgrade and I thought my system wasn't "good enough" if I had to adjust the tone controls. Then I got a CD player and gave-up on trying to "perfect" analog, eventually replacing (or digitizing) all of my records, and giving-up on vinyl altogether.,

Right, I'm definitely trying to avoid that. I'm ideally looking to do this just once so that I can digitize in as close to a neutral/cd-like presentation and quality as possible and then just leave the player alone 99% of the time. I don't intend on building a record collection except maybe to support a small artist I like here or there. I don't even have a way to play CDs anymore.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Hey guys, use whatever cartridge you want. If it sounds like crap well it must be:

The stylus is dirty, the turntable cartridge alignment, bad stylus anything but the recommended loading by the manufacturer!

LOL!!!!!!!

My experience is that is is almost impossible to load a cartridge so wrong that is sounds dull or has a loss of frequencies above 5k-8k That requires a resistive load below 20k and no RIAA is that wrong. MM RIAA is stuck at 47k and the remaining variable is the capacitance, and that affects the peak frequency and the level of the peak. Some inherently dull cartridges like Rega are best avoided all together.. but most cartridges have a varying degree of brightness, that is the peaking ..
If you want clarity and brightness get an Audio Technica, want a more neutral flat response? Ortofon MM , at least under 10k.. want perfection ? play digital

 

[LTig]

It can in cases of extremely high capacitance where an RC LPF is formed, but in most cases it'll cause an HF peak due to LC resonance. The more L or higher C the lower the resonant f, which will often push the peak in to the audible range. The below plot is rather typical:

View attachment 331678

Looks unexpected to m. AFAIK the higher the capacitive load the higher the peak and the lower its frequency.

 

[JP]

Looks unexpected to m. AFAIK the higher the capacitive load the higher the peak and the lower its frequency.

Depends where the peak is.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Looks unexpected to m. AFAIK the higher the capacitive load the higher the peak and the lower its frequency.

That is what the figure shows is it not?

 

[LTig]

That is what the figure shows is it not?

With rising capacitance the peak gets higher but does not move to lower frequency.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Well it does slightly when I look with some goodwill. The key I think is that mechanical resonance is constant and unchanged, while the electrical moves with Loading,
Higher capacitance lower frequency , lower resistance more high frequency roll off.
That is how I managed this. Before and after load tuning. Old cartridge, new replacement stylus,Tonar 6449 I think it was

 

[narud]

well i could see the op thinking his rig sounds veiled. heres a measurement of the m91 with a black diamond stylus at 2 grams and 320pf of capacitance. i bought a couple bd's (evg branded) a few years ago and back then they needed to track at 2 grams or so. im not sure if newer ones have changed.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Seems like a dull character in the important range below 10k, an AudioTechnica will sound quite different

 

[Balle Clorin]

With rising capacitance the peak gets higher but does not move to lower frequency.

You are wrong , and I have the numbers to prove it too.

 

[LTig]

With rising capacitance the peak gets higher but does not move to lower frequency.

You are wrong , and I have the numbers to prove it too.

Oops, you 're right. The peak moves lower (as I would expect) but is reduced in height (which I didn't expect).