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dCS threatens with a 7-figure lawsuit over a review

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the risk of a personal opinion being declared "defamation" when using a public platform is very real.

all I know is that in my job I am asked to review any cimpetitve claim with legal. no matter how evident publicly available information is.
Yes, all true. The risk of being sued is not very well correlated with the likelihood of losing the case.


I think the comparison to news and public figures is also tricky because there are different rules for politicians and defamation (very high bar in the US) and news (is supposed to) avoid personal opinion, while reviews can be almost 100% personal opinion.
 
Yes, all true. The risk of being sued is not very well correlated with the likelihood of losing the case.


I think the comparison to news and public figures is also tricky because there are different rules for politicians and defamation (very high bar in the US) and news (is supposed to) avoid personal opinion, while reviews can be almost 100% personal opinion.
Image wise, the retaining of a lawyer with a credible threat to sue is nearly a mandatory line of defense to defend reputation. Especially in the USA.

the line about "you are free to say anything on anything in the USA" is naive.
 
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Do you feel the same way about Erin re: Tekton? GS and HP.com only brought this to light after getting the nastygram from the lawyer. They swallowed a bunch of totally unprofessional abuse by that guy beforehand. And GS made the video private for a long time in order for dCS to provide input about what they believed was factually inaccurate about the review. It was only made public again after multiple requests for specifics were ignored.
i wasn't talking about that so it is irrelevant to drag that in. I barely remember the facts there.
 
There’s a dCS dealer in Bellevue, WA. Perhaps they could arrange a setup with @amirm, test the product and let it take its rightful place on the graph. No questions about proper setup. Just the facts… with the pricing beside it.


And, like you say, reserve maybe Post 3 for manufacturer response (Post 2 is typically reserved for @AdamG to post specs).

I have low confidence this proposal will come to pass…
I will try to answer this as best I am able and Amir can correct anything I get wrong. Vendors and Manufacturers are always welcome to come and join the conversation and community. We go to great lengths to make them feel welcome and comfortable in our community. We can’t force them to come here and communicate with us directly. As far as facing a highly skilled and experienced Audio Science crowd. I know of no other community that can hold a candle to the level of expertise represented here by our Community members. This aspect alone might present a hurdle for some companies. Additionally it takes a significant commitment of time and labor to participate in our forums when viewed in a business perspective. Having a person who participates in the discussion has a cost. Both financially and emotionally.

But, if Any vendor wants to participate in the conversation they are invited and welcome to come and spend some time with us. As far as reserving a specific post position. The system software would not facilitate that. When Amir reserves the 2nd post for me to post up the Specifications. When I do. I end up posting as Amir and the post is linked to his username and not mine. That would not work for Vendors. They really need to make their own account and post when they can. Post position is not that important. Just my thoughts on how this could work. The forums software places posts in date/time stamp order and this is a fixed limitation that has no workaround. This is part of the difficulty for when we merge two separate threads about the same subject. The forum software rearranges all the posts by their date and time stamp irrespective of the original thread post position. We have tried various methods of defeating this perimeter and they have all failed to work.
 
Is there anything that companies deserve? Or is it just reviewers? Are there any fair and proper protocols that reviewers should follow?
Of course. One of them is in every review I write. It ends with inviting anyone including companies to comment, critique, etc. The other is the origin of the product which again, I disclose at the start of every review. I also write any conflict of interest I might have. While not explicit, I offer my test scripts to manufacturers when they question them and work with them to replicate (or not). I also post company responses to my reviews or link to them. And always invite them to fully make their case here. Using standardized tests helps a lot here where the same tests are run on competing products.
 
This, to me, seems like a total BS. Help me understand something. Why is this matter becoming public now? The email that talks about misinformation is from October last year. Why is this on Youtube and various forums exactly now?
I can give you my information. I was contacted in May of this year to provide the explanation you see. Cameron had to also get independent verification from others. Making sure your response is accurate requires fair bit of work so I don't think it is out of line that we hear about it now.

When Tekton went after me, I also kept silent about it for good bit until I felt there was no choice when they went after Erin.
 
Of course. One of them is in every review I write. It ends with inviting anyone including companies to comment, critique, etc. The other is the origin of the product which again, I disclose at the start of every review. I also write any conflict of interest I might have. While not explicit, I offer my test scripts to manufacturers when they question them and work with them to replicate (or not). I also post company responses to my reviews or link to them. And always invite them to fully make their case here. Using standardized tests helps a lot here where the same tests are run on competing products.
As an engineer, I recognize you being a good engineer by stating what you are testing, the test equipment, the methodology, and the results of the test. It's completely repeatable.
 
Image wise, the retaining of a lawyer with a credible threat so sue is nearly a mandatory line of defense to defend reputation. Especially in the USA.

the line about "you are free to say anything on anything in the USA" is naive.
Well, let me put it this way... in my time at an audio brand, the thought of suing reviewers to defend my reputation never even occurred to me, because it's a losing game either way.

If you win the case or get them to take the review down, you look like a bully and nobody will really believe the criticisms were false anyway. And, it's expensive if lawyers are involved.

If you lose, then you look like an idiot, a bully, you lose a bunch of money, and your products are confirmed to be bad in a court of law.

Either way, you alienate the people who are most important to your marketing efforts - the reviewers themselves.

Now, if a competing brand started talking s*** about our products, it would be a different story.

And yes, anyone can sue anyone at any time for any reason in the US. But it seems like a lot of people in this thread think making unsupported statements of opinion puts you in actual legal jeopardy, which is not the case.
 
IMO any professional reviewer should give the company -whose products they are publishing a review about- a platform to publish a response to the review, and visibly feature it. Failure to do so to me shows (a) silly butt-headedness in protecting your infallibility, (b) potential bias and ill intent.
You presume companies want to engage. I am testing a speaker. I sent the company my measurements weeks ago and they did not even bother to acknowledge it. Their published measurements are better than mine and hence me wanting to run it by them. Now I have lost a lot of time waiting on them and owner being without his (very expensive) speaker system.

As I noted above, when companies do respond, I highlight their responses in my review either as a link or full quote. See this Carver response for example: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/carver-crimson-275-review-tube-amp.29971/

To the extent these companies loathe to send us gear for review, this is the best we can do. In a perfect world, they would post their own measurements and proper listening tests. When they don't, then we are at the mercy of owners sending us gear to test and provide avenue for them to respond/challenge.

Are you going to defend the current system of them sending gear only to high-end magazine and sites in exchange for almost guaranteed positive subjective review?
 
Absolutely they should. Stereophile have done that forever with the "manufacturer's response" at the end of reviews.
Stereophile gets gear from companies and has direct contact with them to get such feedback. I do the same when companies send me products. But when an owner wants his gear tested, I don't go chasing companies as in almost every case they don't answer me. If we are not important enough to care about, then it shouldn't matter what we do or say. They can't have it both ways. Stereophile does not operate this way so the comparison is not valid.

As I said above, in case of what we do, companies need to run the same tests and publish them. Or at least something close to it. That way, i can cross check my results against theirs. I can then either contact them, or post their measurements in the review indicating discrepancy.

Finally note that many companies have a policy to not comment on social media.
 
I am testing a speaker. I sent the company my measurements weeks ago and they did not even bother to acknowledge it. Their published measurements are better than mine and hence me wanting to run it by them. Now I have lost a lot of time waiting on them and owner being without his (very expensive) speaker system.
Aaaaaaaa, exciting little tidbit there. Very expensive Speaker under testing is exciting. Is the brand name 3 letters or less? Any advance clues to wet the mental appetite?
 
You presume companies want to engage. I am testing a speaker. I sent the company my measurements weeks ago and they did not even bother to acknowledge it. Their published measurements are better than mine and hence me wanting to run it by them. Now I have lost a lot of time waiting on them and owner being without his (very expensive) speaker system.

As I noted above, when companies do respond, I highlight their responses in my review either as a link or full quote. See this Carver response for example: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/carver-crimson-275-review-tube-amp.29971/

To the extent these companies loathe to send us gear for review, this is the best we can do. In a perfect world, they would post their own measurements and proper listening tests. When they don't, then we are at the mercy of owners sending us gear to test and provide avenue for them to respond/challenge.

Are you going to defend the current system of them sending gear only to high-end magazine and sites in exchange for almost guaranteed positive subjective review?
Never accused ASR, I know it is been repeatedly openly stated manufacturers' statements are invited. Sorry if given the context it was perceived as a snide remark. I remain an enthusiastic ASR suporter... but I don't think all the semipro reviewers trying to find their niche abide by the same technical accuracy and expertise... that's all.
 
Stereophile gets gear from companies and has direct contact with them to get such feedback. I do the same when companies send me products. But when an owner wants his gear tested, I don't go chasing companies as in almost every case they don't answer me. If we are not important enough to care about, then it shouldn't matter what we do or say. They can't have it both ways. Stereophile does not operate this way so the comparison is not valid.

As I said above, in case of what we do, companies need to run the same tests and publish them. Or at least something close to it. That way, i can cross check my results against theirs. I can then either contact them, or post their measurements in the review indicating discrepancy.

Finally note that many companies have a policy to not comment on social media.

Your various interactions with manufacturers/importers prior to the review are not remotely transparent to the review reading public- that is the issue.

A public right to reply immediately after the review is posted is the least you can offer. Again, whether they choose to take it up is neither here nor there.

No need to get so defensive either- this is common sense.
 
Aaaaaaaa, exciting little tidbit there. Very expensive Speaker under testing is exciting. Is the brand name 3 letters or less? Any advance clues to wet the mental appetite?
It is a specialized home theater speaker system so definitely not what you are thinking.
 
Your various interactions with manufacturers/importers prior to the review are not remotely transparent to the review reading public- that is the issue.
Neither are my bathroom habits. Why are you entitled to my private communications with others? Your interest should be in the objective review information you get.
 
Neither are my bathroom habits. Why are you entitled to my private communications with others? Your interest should be in the objective review information you get.
Unneccessary escalation driven by the topic.

I never speak for other people, I think the point was just to make sure the manufacturers' comments are clearly invited and -if they come in- get like the 1st reply post in the review.

Absolutely nothing else.
 
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