Adding a DAC to NAD M33 makes sense?

[LP1313]

Good morning everyone,
I currently have the Atohm GT1-HDs & KEF KC62 connected to a NAD M33 and play my CDs on a Primare DD-35 transport.
I don’t believe the M33’s DAC is bad, but can’t help wondering if adding a separate DAC would make a (significant) difference and if so which (max 1k) DACs would be recommendable?
It’s new territory for me and I’m eager to learn more, so your wisdom is more than welcome ;-)
Thanks and all the best,
Laurens

 

[voodooless]

No. Want better sound, spend it in your room or on speakers.

 

[LP1313]

Thanks for fast reply

 

[voodooless]

Thanks for fast reply

There is some method to the madness though:
- DACs are basically a solved problem. The one in your M33 has a 108 SINAD, which is good enough and you likely won’t hear the difference to another one anyway.
- the M33 sample every incoming signal to apply DSP (Dirac & tone control). Your brand spanking new DAC sound will go though the same old M33 DAC anyway, and get an AD conversion on top of it for free.
- DACs are not EQ tools. They don’t have sound (unless badly designed).

So the best bet of improving sound is with better speakers, better room treatment or room correction (or even better, a combination of all three). Since the unit already has Dirac, I assume you actually use it already ? If not, do! It’s quite configurable, so you can tailor the sound the way you like it.

 

[Astoneroad]

Totally agree with voodooless. I owned the M33 and it was measured here, it's silently doing the job. If you're not using the full capabilities of the on board Dirac, that's where to start. If you are, then focus on your room and/or speakers, as already stated... your electronics are solved. Spend time learning Dirac, not $ on a DAC. Enjoy.

 

[LP1313]

There is some method to the madness though:
- DACs are basically a solved problem. The one in your M33 has a 108 SINAD, which is good enough and you likely won’t hear the difference to another one anyway.
- the M33 sample every incoming signal to apply DSP (Dirac & tone control). Your brand spanking new DAC sound will go though the same old M33 DAC anyway, and get an AD conversion on top of it for free.
- DACs are not EQ tools. They don’t have sound (unless badly designed).

So the best bet of improving sound is with better speakers, better room treatment or room correction (or even better, a combination of all three). Since the unit already has Dirac, I assume you actually use it already ? If not, do! It’s quite configurable, so you can tailor the sound the way you like it.

Thanks a lot for comprehensive reply, very educational.
I plan to play around with Dirac soon, looking fw to it.
Room treatment is going to be a challenge because this setup is in the living room…
The Atohms I enjoy a lot, great speaker to my taste, will definitely stay with me for a while.
Enjoy your Sunday

 

[pogo]

DACs are not EQ tools. They don’t have sound (unless badly designed).

Why should DAC implementations always sound the same?
A developer decides here which settings are best suited to his design and taste.
Here an example of the DAC GUI taken from the datasheet of the DAC ES9028:

 

[voodooless]

Why should DAC implementations always sound the same?

Because that is the function of the thing: convert digital data to an analog signal in the best possible way. And for the past couple of decades, we’ve been so good at it that any differences should be inaudible if well designed.

A developer decides here which settings are best suited to his design and taste.

Again: a DAC is no EQ, that’s should not be a factor. If so, your creating a flawed boutique product.

Here an example of the DAC GUI taken from the datasheet of the DAC ES9028:

Yes, those sliders are there to optimize the DaC output for the specific implementation of the IV stage to minimize distortion. You can obviously choose to add more distortion, but why? It defeats the purpose of the thing…

 

[Hear Here]

So the best bet of improving sound is with better speakers, better room treatment or room correction (or even better, a combination of all three). Since the unit already has Dirac, I assume you actually use it already ? If not, do! It’s quite configurable, so you can tailor the sound the way you like it.

Isn't there a contradiction here?

If you have a good amp that delivers a nice flat frequency response and good speakers that produce a response-flat sound, there's no need to bugger up the amp's nice flat output because your room isn't perfect. You rightly say, put money into room treatment - this should obviate the need to mess with the lovely flat response your carefully chosen and costly amp was built to deliver.

I have the M33 but it sounds better without messing with the signal - because I've spent a bit of time and effort with my room - and a LOT of dosh on my speakers. and time setting them up. No Dirac for me thanks and I'll try to explain why I think Dirac and other DSPs built into full range amps can do more harm than good.

The signal (all of it) has to pass through this Digital Signal Processor. Remember those works - the signal is being processed and we all know that the less processing of a signal, the better the sound. Granted Dirac (in the M33) only ADJUSTS sub 500 Hz but the ENTIRE signal has to pass though the processor - there is no bypass for higher frequencies. This processing can slightly spoil the top end in a high quality system - a bit of the sparkle or goosebump factor is lost if Dirac is engaged. The only way to protect the top end is to have an active system with separate amps for bass and the rest, with DSP only in the bass amp. This allows the unmolested top end to continue sans-DSP to the mid and top drivers.

DSP has its place but only really in multi-speaker AV systems where the owner hasn't the skills to set up his complex system properly. Otherwise good speakers, properly set up in a reasonably well treated room is all that's required.

But returning to the OP's question - I agree it's daft to introduce an external DAC as it's analogue output will be converted back to digital and them to analogue a second time within the M33. A different situation with the new NAD M66 as analogue inputs can be switched to bypass the ADC and DAC, but this means Dirac's DSP is bypassed too.

 

[Bleib]

I'd still be curious and try the SMSL SU-1 or D6s as they are currently on a deal. Speakers will do more of course, but sometimes a DAC can help as well.

 

[voodooless]

Isn't there a contradiction here?

No, it’s not.

If you have a good amp that delivers a nice flat frequency response and good speakers that produce a response-flat sound, there's no need to bugger up the amp's nice flat output because your room isn't perfect.

Of course there is: your room isn’t perfect.

You rightly say, put money into room treatment - this should obviate the need to mess with the lovely flat response your carefully chosen and costly amp was built to deliver.

Except it doesn’t. You cannot stuff a regular room so full of treatment that you’ll end up with a super flat response. And in the process, you’ll over treat your room and end up with bad sound anyway.

So a heathy mix of treatment and correction is a better solution.

The signal (all of it) has to pass through this Digital Signal Processor. Remember those works - the signal is being processed and we all know that the less processing of a signal, the better the sound

No we don’t..

 

[Verig]

Room correction makes an immense difference and most people can't make their room good enough by other means. Dedicated listening room perhaps (and many not even then) but living room? No.

I have NAD M10 and driving everything through Dirac wins over everything. Clearly, absolutely no contest. Straight output from preamp is completely meaningless if the signal gets butchered by your room.

Back to the original question: same answer as from others, outboard dac doesn't really make sense here.