Spyware In Cars - It's Worse Than You Think

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Personally, I don't mind having aggressive drivers paying a bit more. They can afford a new car and need to respect safe driving. Perhaps if this information becomes public they might be a little safer on the road?

I would like these companies to also record impact data along with GPS and report it to a national public database. There are so many hit and run accidents in parking lots and on the road it's crazy. Our car was hit twice simply going inside the pharmacy in one year. No note left - $1800-2500 in damages each time. There's a growing lack of moral accountability within segments of the US population.

While you're at it, monitors in our homes. Better yet brain implants. Then we can really root out moral accountability.

 

[Keith_W]

Funny how your perspective on life changes. When I first got my drivers license, I was overjoyed with the freedom it gave me. No more bicycles and public transport. I drove everywhere.

Now I am in my 50's, I hate driving. I have gone back to bicycles and public transport. Of course it helps that my city is bicycle and pedestrian friendly, but there are still parts of my city which are difficult to access if you don't drive. I would love it if I could get rid of my car entirely, but I don't think that is going to happen any time soon.

 

[EJ3]

Funny how your perspective on life changes. When I first got my drivers license, I was overjoyed with the freedom it gave me. No more bicycles and public transport. I drove everywhere.

Now I am in my 50's, I hate driving. I have gone back to bicycles and public transport. Of course it helps that my city is bicycle and pedestrian friendly, but there are still parts of my city which are difficult to access if you don't drive. I would love it if I could get rid of my car entirely, but I don't think that is going to happen any time soon.

At 67, I haven't changed: I hate walking for walking's sake (or exercise), absolutely despise running (hated it more than being hit when I was a boxer), I like bicycle riding well enough (the airflow around me is something that I crave), I very much like driving, even more do I like motor cycle riding (but the amount of mental Zombies driving cages preclude me from doing that in public any more).
Waterskiing, snow skiing, 130 MPH Go-Karts, etc. My mother is 90 & is still a great driver, on an empty freeway she will go 90 MPH.
Maybe it's inherited.

 

[somebodyelse]

Back on topic, linking the car issue here to the wider problem of knowing what you agreed to in that EULA, especially where it involves undefined things like business relationships that are fluid, or 'future research.' Assuming that the terms aren't unilaterally changed anyway, like the recent Glassdoor example. Genomics researchers are looking at how they can be sure subjects really did consent to the research they are doing.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/0...-takes-spotlight-in-gm-connected-car-scandal/
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...l-names-job-info-to-profiles-without-consent/

 

[Ron Texas]

@somebodyelse I have a strong feeling GM is going to lose in court because the average juror is going to be offended by what is going on. I think it's likely that many states will outlaw the practice of creating and sharing this information. It's interesting that gas mileage goes into the calculation because that parameter could be inflated by an engine defect, cold weather or too much idle time.

 

[valerianf]

@DesertRatt "He said they put them in every car sold!"
In 2017 I bought a Ford Fusion Sport.
I selected a lower trim to get sure that there was no cellular modem in this car.
But when I signed the paperwork, there was a page about a GPS tracker, and for sure an additional fee.
I refused to pay the fee and asked the tracker to be removed.
The dealer told me that the tracker is mounted in every car that they are selling and that they cannot remove it, but only inhibit it.
I have no way to verify that the tracker has been inhibited.

This is the modern world: we are tracked 24/24.

 

[Ron Texas]

@valerianf was this an aftermarket device? The dealer probably had a contract to do this to every car. I suspect they lied about disabling it or being able to remove it if it was aftermarket.

 

[Timcognito]

@DesertRatt "He said they put them in every car sold!"
In 2017 I bought a Ford Fusion Sport.
I selected a lower trim to get sure that there was no cellular modem in this car.
But when I signed the paperwork, there was a page about a GPS tracker, and for sure an additional fee.
I refused to pay the fee and asked the tracker to be removed.
The dealer told me that the tracker is mounted in every car that they are selling and that they cannot remove it, but only inhibit it.
I have no way to verify that the tracker has been inhibited.

This is the modern world: we are tracked 24/24.

Your're in LA and they can only track mileage. Not sure signing a release obviates this. Read page 13 of this.

https://consumerfed.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Insurance-Auto-Telematics-White-Paper-5-26-21.pdf

 

[DesertRatt]

@DesertRatt "He said they put them in every car sold!"
In 2017 I bought a Ford Fusion Sport.
I selected a lower trim to get sure that there was no cellular modem in this car.
But when I signed the paperwork, there was a page about a GPS tracker, and for sure an additional fee.
I refused to pay the fee and asked the tracker to be removed.
The dealer told me that the tracker is mounted in every car that they are selling and that they cannot remove it, but only inhibit it.
I have no way to verify that the tracker has been inhibited.

This is the modern world: we are tracked 24/24.

Sure. They tried that gag with me too. I wasn't having it. I threatened the boss that I would make a huge stink with Toyota America. He finally relented to removing it. I said outright I don't trust you, so bring it to me and put it in my hand! He agreed and two hours later I had it in hand. I continued to make a stink with the General Manager just on principle. I said they were practicing FASCISM and to NOT fly the American flag over their business. I made a very nasty Yelp! post about them as well, which drew a phone call from the owners.

 

[Ron Texas]

Your're in LA and they can only track mileage. Not sure signing a release obviates this. Read page 13 of this.

https://consumerfed.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Insurance-Auto-Telematics-White-Paper-5-26-21.pdf

The paper is about voluntary telematics programs. The issue here is involuntary telematics. The involuntary telematics may well violate state law in some states. I think the Florida lawsuit is going to bring this to a head because of public awareness.

 

[Timcognito]

The issue here is involuntary telematics.

Wouldn't any involuntary telematics violate privacy and trespassing statues, especially in states like CA and FL. It's like putting a camera in restroom and spying on people, it isillegal. What large company would risk that?

 

[Ron Texas]

Wouldn't any involuntary telematics violate privacy and trespassing statues, especially in states like CA and FL. It's like putting a camera in restroom and spying on people, it isillegal. What large company would risk that?

It might be a violation in some states. The Florida lawsuit is based on a deceptive practices statute. Presumably in California only mileage may be reported.

 

[Timcognito]

It might be a violation in some states. The Florida lawsuit is based on a deceptive practices statute. Presumably in California only mileage may be reported.

Based on the well researched paper (2021) there are few restrictions in the examples of Ohio and Maryland.

 

[Ron Texas]

Based on the well researched paper (2021) there are few restrictions in the examples of Ohio and Maryland.

Right now I'm trying to get all data transmission turned off in my Wrangler. It appears services can be turned off remotely but the data transmission continues. I have asked Mopar to either remotely disable all transmission or have the dealer disconnect the antenna at their expense. This has to be done without breaking anything.

 

[Timcognito]

Right now I'm trying to get all data transmission turned off in my Wrangler. It appears services can be turned off remotely but the data transmission continues. I have asked Mopar to either remotely disable all transmission or have the dealer disconnect the antenna at their expense. This has to be done without breaking anything.

Wow good luck. We are the same page on this one. Seems that with all the bounty of the internet, privacy something that is huge loss. I do not do any social media for that reason.

 

[somebodyelse]

I said they were practicing FASCISM and to NOT fly the American flag over their business.

Not fascism, just common or garden capitalism. It's legal (for now) and profitable.

 

[Ron Texas]

Not fascism, just common or garden capitalism. It's legal (for now) and profitable.

What I see is a feeding frenzy to collect as much data as possible before the practice gets shut down either by specific state law or unfavorable court decisions based on general principles like deceptive practices.

I know the OnStar antenna may disconnected to disable all data transmission in GM cars without breaking any other features. This kind of service is likely to become a cottage industry.

 

[Zorlac]

My auto insurance went sky high my last renewal. I have perfect credit, no claims, no marks on my driving record. Insurance companies (yes, I got quotes and also talked to a broker) said the same old BS - covid, inflation, and then a few local things like fires and KIA gang. No one ever mentioned these metrics being collected by LexisNexis and Verisk.

My car is only a few years old and the dealer sat me down and said I had to register for the Mazda app on my phone. So I did and had it on my phone ever since. Obviously it is deleted now. Doesnt matter though because I use Apple Music in my car, so any car stored data would have Internet connectivity thru my cell phone in theory. I would guess that if the dealer ever updated my car's software, it would obtain an Internet connection as well.

I requested my LexisNexis report and already received a denial letter stating they cant verify me. I USED THEIR FORM ONLINE!
I submitted it again, so we shall see what they say.


Here is the info I got from the New York Times article again just in case its helpful for others:


-See the data your car is capable of collecting with this tool: https://vehicleprivacyreport.com/.

-Check your connected car app, if you use one, to see if you are enrolled in one of these programs.

-Do an online search for “privacy request form” alongside the name of your vehicle’s manufacturer. There should be instructions on how to request information your car company has about you.

-Request your LexisNexis report: https://consumer.risk.lexisnexis.com/consumer

-Request your Verisk report: https://fcra.verisk.com/#/

 

[Ron Texas]

Customer Care for my vehicle has informed me the dealer can disable data transmission at no charge to me. I'm going to the dealer next week to see what happens.

 

[EJ3]

Wow good luck. We are the same page on this one. Seems that with all the bounty of the internet, privacy something that is huge loss. I do not do any social media for that reason.

No social media here, either.