Upmixing - where are we at? Have people compared upmixers?

[patoulol]

Thank you for these explanations if I want to do that, I need two AVR prologics for two wides? or a single prologic AVR?

Yes, I take the pre-outs from the AVR (after Atmos processing) and take say Left Main and Left Side Surround and plug them into the Left/Right inputs of a PLII AVR. Pick a decoder mode (Neo6 and Neural Surround also work in addition to Pro Logic and Pro Logic II) and that input is removed from the inputs while the resulting center output gives you a mostly discrete output between the two input speakers.

Repeat this for the right side and you have Front Wides that always work for any decoded surround mode including Auro-3D which doesn't normally support Front Wides. It even works with Logic 7 output on my Lexicon MC-1 plugged into my 7.1 inputs on my Marantz 7012.

You can go one further. For my overhead speakers I invert the phase of one of the inputs between Front Heights and Rear Heights. This makes the correlated output come out of the surround outputs instead. There are two of them spaced apart about 30 degrees. I just flip the polarity back to normal on that "side" by swapping the +/- leads on those speaker outputs.

Thus, I get two "Tops" extracted from each side giving me Heights+Tops (8 ceiling speakers) from two PLII AVRs. Atmos demos show the sounds are where they're supposed to be.

You can only normally get Heights+Tops from a Storm or Trinnov processor. Better yet, you can get around other home Atmos limitations. For example, the cinema version of Ready Player One uses "Bed Heights" which were meant to play through all ceiling speakers but the Atmos home encoder only put them in Top Middle (phantom imaged with Heights or Tops), but if you have 6 overheads you only get Top Middle and with 8 or 10 overheads (Storm/Trinnov) you only get either Tops or Top Middle respectively.

On my system, all I have to do is select multichannel stereo mode on the two overhead PLII AVRs and I get the cinema style full arrayed Heights+Tops signal in that movie so direct overhead sounds follow you around across all three rows of seating just like it did at the cinema.

Thank you for these explanations if I want to do that, I need two AVR prologics for two wides? or a single prologic AVR?

 

[Magnus]

Thank you for these explanations if I want to do that, I need two AVR prologics for two wides? or a single prologic AVR?

Thank you for these explanations if I want to do that, I need two AVR prologics for two wides? or a single prologic AVR?

You need one for each side so two as there's only two inputs in Pro Logic modes. The center out is the extra channel.

Reverse polarity would be to extract more than one channel per side (e.g. Top Front Left and Top Rear Left)

 

[Newman]

All "music modes" even Logic 7's Music Logic and PLII Music said explicitly in the instructions that the music mode simply didn't remove the center channel information from the Left/Right mains.

With my AVR the PLII Music (and the DTS Neo Music) upmixers each allow adjustment of the centre image/spread. I get the impression this means the allocation to LCR is adjustable.

 

[Magnus]

I'm curious how DSU without overheads (disable them) compares to PLIIx.

It's rather difficult to compare them since most AVRs don't have both. I could plug in an old Yamaha AVR to my 7.1 inputs to compare, but that would mean losing my laserdisc player and then using its 7.1 inputs to plug my Lexicon MC-1 in (currently plugged into the 7.1 inputs and fits on top of my laserdisc player).

The Lexicon MC-12 has both PLIIx and a fully adjustable Logic 7, but it's at least 3 inches taller than the DC-1 (more for XLR version) and so I'd lose my laserdisc player regardless.

On the plus side, I just got my hands on the original MC-1 remote in full working order (nice backlight) so no more DC-1 remote slumming it.

 

[dlaloum]

I'm curious how DSU without overheads (disable them) compares to PLIIx.

It's rather difficult to compare them since most AVRs don't have both. I could plug in an old Yamaha AVR to my 7.1 inputs to compare, but that would mean losing my laserdisc player and then using its 7.1 inputs to plug my Lexicon MC-1 in (currently plugged into the 7.1 inputs and fits on top of my laserdisc player).

The Lexicon MC-12 has both PLIIx and a fully adjustable Logic 7, but it's at least 3 inches taller than the DC-1 (more for XLR version) and so I'd lose my laserdisc player regardless.

On the plus side, I just got my hands on the original MC-1 remote in full working order (nice backlight) so no more DC-1 remote slumming it.

Yes, Dolby split out PLII as a seperate licence (at seperate cost) - primarily so they wouldn't have to pay royalties to Jim Fosgates family/estate...

In theory there is not reason why there couldn't be more adjustability for the Center settings in DSU... I'm not sure whether that is an option available to the manufacturers (and they chose to simplify it) - or whether Dolby themselves have turned it into a PHD feature (Press Here Dummy).

 

[valerianf]

"I'm not sure whether that is an option available to the manufacturers"
The Onkyo TX-RZ50 and TX-RZ70 have a "Vocal" setting.
Could someone confirm that when using this setting with DSU the end result is a center spread?

From the user manual:
VOCAL button: Emphasizes movie dialogues
and music vocals to listen to them more easily.
It is effective to movie lines in particular. Also, it
exerts the effect even if the center speaker is not
used. Select a desired level from "1" (low) to "5"
(high).

 

[ban25]

"I'm not sure whether that is an option available to the manufacturers"
The Onkyo TX-RZ50 and TX-RZ70 have a "Vocal" setting.
Could someone confirm that when using this setting with DSU the end result is a center spread?

From the user manual:
VOCAL button: Emphasizes movie dialogues
and music vocals to listen to them more easily.
It is effective to movie lines in particular. Also, it
exerts the effect even if the center speaker is not
used. Select a desired level from "1" (low) to "5"
(high).

The Integra DRX-8.4 (and presumably Pioneer 805 and Onkyo RZ70) have an explicit Center Spread toggle for DSU. Before I switched to Auro3D, I would toggle Center Spread on for music and leave it off for movies. This "Vocal" setting sounds like some kind of push-button EQ and is not related to DSU.

 

[ivo.f.doma]

"I'm not sure whether that is an option available to the manufacturers"
The Onkyo TX-RZ50 and TX-RZ70 have a "Vocal" setting.
Could someone confirm that when using this setting with DSU the end result is a center spread?

From the user manual:
VOCAL button: Emphasizes movie dialogues
and music vocals to listen to them more easily.
It is effective to movie lines in particular. Also, it
exerts the effect even if the center speaker is not
used. Select a desired level from "1" (low) to "5"
(high).

Where does the TX-RZ70 have the "VOCAL" button?

 

[valerianf]

I do not have yet a RZ70 but the user manual clearly explain how to access the command:

 

[Magnus]

I've been reading old reviews and comments on the Lexicon MC-12, MC-8 and MC-4 line. One comment in particular about how much closer Logic7 is to 5.1/7.1 discrete sources on 2-channel input compared to the MC-1 has me wanting to try one now. I'm always interested in any tweaks/changes to make sound and music sound more holographic.

Also, it seems I don't actually need a MC-12 as the extra aux outputs (much vaunted for future expansion) were never used. I don't need room correction (A Mini-DSP will suffice for subs on both the Marantz 7012 and Lexicon) nor do I need extra zones.

The base features appear to be identica between all three models and better yet, the MC-8 and MC-4 are only 97mm tall, only 5mm (0.2") taller than my MC-1 so I might be able to fit it on top of my laserdisc player where the MC-1 sits without having to ditch the laserdisc player. It's easier to search for two or three models than just one for used equipment as well.

The only rub I can see is that I see no evidence that the MC-4 ever got the newer firmware update for PLIIx in literature/manuals. The MC-8 obviously did as there's an updated manual for those features online.

 

[ivo.f.doma]

I do not have yet a RZ70 but the user manual clearly explain how to access the command:

I don't have such a button on Pioneer...

 

[Chr1]

I am curious as to whether any of you guys tweak the channel levels when upmixing stereo? I use DTS Neo:X a lot, but did spend some time customising the channel levels to suit my personal taste several years ago. (I have these saved in a preset that I use for upmixing stereo sources only.)
Just wondering if anyone else has done something similar?

 

[Magnus]

I customized levels for multichannel stereo mode for Sonic Holography all channels using the Zucharelli Holophonics binaural demo CD to get it as close to headphones as possible. This produces a very good 360 Sonic Holography sound for music CDs. Sometimes Logic7 sounds better. Sometimes 360 Sonic Holography sounds better. Panorama on the Lexicon with rears on also works well, but the rears are mono compared to the multichannel stereo SH method so they sound very different. It's nice to have multiple options.

 

[valerianf]

Regarding the Pioneer VLSX-805 the "Vocal" setting can be accessed using the remote.
It is named "Dialog".

 

[ivo.f.doma]

Regarding the Pioneer VLSX-805 the "Vocal" setting can be accessed using the remote.
It is named "Dialog".

But the button doesn't do what it's supposed to do for me when I have Dirac on. On the AVR display it says "not available"

But thank you for trying to help. I really don't know how to live with Dirac.

 

[Robert-Hifi]

I am curious as to whether any of you guys tweak the channel levels when upmixing stereo? I use DTS Neo:X a lot, but did spend some time customising the channel levels to suit my personal taste several years ago. (I have these saved in a preset that I use for upmixing stereo sources only.)
Just wondering if anyone else has done something similar?

I'm using Auro-2D Surround upmixing stereo to 4.0 with the surround channels at -8.0dB on my Denon AVC-X4800H.
This is necessary because the surrounds are level boosted by Audyssey and this way it's very subtle and not "shouty" surround.

 

[Newman]

…with the surround channels at -8.0dB on my Denon AVC-X4800H.
This is necessary because the surrounds are level boosted by Audyssey and this way it's very subtle and not "shouty" surround.

Hi Robert, I probably shouldn’t try to help on this topic, not being an Audy guy, but from what I’ve read, if the surrounds are too loud for your preference after running Audyssey, you might be better off with Dynamic EQ turned off, and the surrounds not turned down. I get the impression DEQ is the main culprit.

Because, if you have DEQ on at the moment, then adjusting surrounds to, say, -8.0dB, will only be correct at one volume setting and wrong at others.

cheers

 

[Magnus]

Dynamic EQ, as implemented is terrible, IMO. If it were only a loudness type curve, it would be fine, but it changes the front-to-back levels and that royally screwed up my "Scatmos" response among other things. I don't think our rearward perception drops with volume level like bass perception does. It's a shame that can't be disabled as the bass part could be useful by itself. The stand alone Windows based Audyssey editor was supposed to offer an option to do just that, but I don't know that it ever did.

I find no need here to reduce surround levels with Auromatic. In fact, I can barely hear them from the front row, which is why I prefer Logic7.

What I don't like about Auromatic is that the higher settings increase bass levels a lot. That seems like a very basic thing to correct and AFAIK they never have corrected that behavior. I shouldn't have to lower the sub output to listen to Auromatic.

 

[Robert-Hifi]

Hi Robert, I probably shouldn’t try to help on this topic, not being an Audy guy, but from what I’ve read, if the surrounds are too loud for your preference after running Audyssey, you might be better off with Dynamic EQ turned off, and the surrounds not turned down. I get the impression DEQ is the main culprit.

Because, if you have DEQ on at the moment, then adjusting surrounds to, say, -8.0dB, will only be correct at one volume setting and wrong at others.

cheers

Yes, I'm aware Audyssey Dynamic EQ boosts the level of the surround channels and dependent of the volume setting.
Which makes it impossible to find one level that works in all cases, but I also like the loudness curve that Dynamic EQ applies.
But that's also volume dependent, so it's a double-edged sword and you have to choose.

1) Use Dynamic EQ results in non-optimal levels for the surround channels at all volume settings, but have volume dependent loudness curve.
or
2) Disable Dynamic EQ results in no volume dependent loudness curve, but optimal levels for the surround channels.

I chose option 1, but I can understand why people would go for option 2.

 

[krabapple]

You missed my point, I think. All center spread does is NOT remove the center content from the Left/Right main speakers. So you end up with the center channel playing duplicated signals. It's no longer discrete and comb filtering doubles as well.

I recommend to just turn the center off entirely if Center Spread sounds "better" to you. It will sound even better yet. With 3 identical speakers mounted correctly in relation to one another, all Center Spread does is increase comb filtering. It may not be audible (I've found comb filtering claims of ruining sound overblown, personally), but it shouldn't be affecting, let alone improving stereo imaging over not using the setting with identical speakers.

Before DSU, there was Dolby Pro Logic II. That's where 'center spread' originated, in the DPLII "Center Width" adjustment.

DPLII had multiple modes for different sources, with different default setting for upkmixing. For the Music mode the default Center Width was 3 (equivalent to Center Spread)
For Movie mode it was 0 (no L/R content)

So, why do you suppose Dolby did that specifically for Music listening? You think it was only to anticipate users using non-identical front LCR? Then why not for Movie mode?