My experience with DIY and it's many frustrations that are not talked about.

[JohnBooty]

1. Celebrities - Boy this hobby has a lot of celebrities in it, and while at first I listened and absorbed their information, the further along I get the more I realize many
designers are simply propped up by users with little reference as to what good sound is and not so much that their designs perform well. I see A LOT of popular designers utilizing what
I'd consider very dated approaches to design delivering sub par performance. I've had to take a hard stance and only consider designs that have extensive and trustworthy measurement suites.

I'd consider this design one of dated design principles and a poorly assessed speaker.

Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages - Pit Vipers

Home > Floorstanding Speakers > The Pit Vipers

sites.google.com

I'm curious. What's your specific issue with this design? I realize this is a decidedly and intentionally retro design of his. I have not built or heard it.

His other speakers are a lot more modern. I've built and loved the Classix, Amiga, S2000 MTM, Overnight Sensation, and Overnight Sensation MTM. I have been thrilled with all of them and think they deliver outstanding value.

 

[kemmler3D]

Today a hobbiest just has to buy a USB MIC and he has access to free REW with capabilities even the biggest and best commerical companies could only dream of in the not so distant past. Combine that with free CAD software and the huge knowlege base and parts sourcing available on the web and I could make a strong argument this is the "golden age" of DIY.

I would argue that the professional toolset has advanced proportionally at the same time, leaving the hobbyist in a much better position, but no closer to eclipsing the professionals than they were before. Where we have USB mics, they have Klippel scanners. Where we have free CAD tools, they have fluid dynamic simulators in COMSOL. Where we have 3D printers, they have... really nice 3D printers.

Also, the actual science has advanced a bit since the old days. So a college education in "something technical" does not take you as far as it used to, compared to an actual EE+Acoustics degree.

 

[Momomo67890]

You guys acting like these hifi speaker company's using comsol lol maybe a handful are rest are still using their ears and selling power cables.

 

[Mashcky]

I feel fortunate that I held out on building speakers until I read the Toole book and discovered the ER18RNX speakers. They were the most evidence-based design I could find at the time and I’ve been very satisfied with them.

As far as designing my own speakers — no thanks. There are just too many evidence based designs out there of different styles and design philosophies for my efforts to be worthwhile.

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

I'm not trying to persuade you to stick with DIY, but just want to give my perspective...

Basically, all of the issues you bring up pervade the commercial speaker industry and the audiophile hobby in general. They are not specific to diy speakers and so, don't really serve as effective critiques of DIY. Indeed, I think the diy community fares better than average and I think your characterization that many are dismissive of measurements is not fair. Sites like hificompass, data-bass, and zaph audio have been collecting objective data for longer than ASR has. As for celebrity phenomenon, isn't that just the human condition? It is abundant even here on ASR, where a contingent, instead of focusing on the data, treats Amir's personal value judgments and opinions as gospel.

You brought up the LP6... I really think that is cherry-picking. Much like the lsr305, the lp6 is a value monster and wrecks everything in its price bracket. It wrecks countless commercial speakers that far exceed its pricepoint. That many diy designs don't exceed the value proposition of the lp6 is not much of an indictment of diy speakers.

And I actually have a counterpoint - the Parts Express C-note. These easily play in the same price-performance ballpark of the lp6, particularly if you have a listening space that can take maximum advantage of the EBS type port tuning.

As for drawers full of budget drivers, isn't that a personal thing? Eschewing diy, one could just as easily have drawers full of vacuum tubes, phono cartridges, and fancy power cables. Or conversely, have it full of cheap Chinese USB DACs that all perform audibly identically. Marie Kondo, anyone? With the skills you've acquired along the way... those parts could potentially go into car audio systems or cheap+cheerful gifts (with a personal touch) to friends/family/kids that kick the absolute crap out of the soundbars and bluetooth speakers they would otherwise be using.

Finally, over the years I've read countless accounts by audiophiles afflicted with gear lust, FOMO, buyer's remorse, or endless tweaking who feel that the hobby has interfered negatively with their enjoyment of music. So again, it is not something unique to DIY.

Now, something I'm surprised you didn't mention is how difficult, easy to screw up, time-consuming, and labour-intensive it is to achieve a finish (be it wrap, veneer, or paint) that looks good and not amateur-ish.

 

[kemmler3D]

rest are still using their ears and selling power cables.

Yeah, but we don't buy those or declare victory if our DIY jobs sound like them.

these hifi speaker company's using comsol

The most recommended brands around ASR definitely are, or at least adhere to that type of design philosophy. KEF, Genelec, Neumann, D&D, etc.

 

[kemmler3D]

Much like the lsr305, the lp6 is a value monster and wrecks everything in its price bracket. It wrecks countless commercial speakers that far exceed its pricepoint. That many diy designs don't exceed the value proposition of the lp6 is not much of an indictment of diy speakers.

No, but if your goal is "do better than commercial at a given price point" then the DIYer has a good chance to "get rekt". If you read OP's build thread, he was trying to make speakers that sounded like ATCs or at least competent studio monitors at a lower price point. As you note, this is insanely hard, difficult even for relatively significant commercial brands. If you go in with that expectation, disappointment is likely.

how difficult, easy to screw up, time-consuming, and labour-intensive it is to achieve a finish (be it wrap, veneer, or paint) that looks good and not amateur-ish.

The keys to a decent finish are patience, steady hands, and lots of 400+ grit sandpaper.

 

[pseudoid]

but I feel my opinions may be of more value here than other sites.

You are being quite hard on yourself, for a hobby that didn't win you the 1st place trophy but provided you years of passion.
That reward is much more than just a BFD, isn't it?

Unfortunately, some of your reasonings don't ring well with me (#2 thru #7):
There are DIYs and then there are DIYs, that already have been vetted out... but may use additional features you know more about.

Could your original sin have begun with thinking that you can start a DIY from scratch?
DIY'ing a BBC LS3/5A is still in my bucket list.

 

[Momomo67890]

Weird you brought up diyaudio but they are a treasure trove of failed/successfully done projects to learn from. Also I find it laughable that you say celebrities are putting out junk products but you your self can't even make a simple studio monitor with dsp what the ? #6 you literally admit you didn't plan anything and expect good results ? I feel like you should self reflect and really do better research useing vituixcad to learn more about speaker building.

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

Weird you brought up diyaudio but they are a treasure trove of failed/successfully done projects to learn from. Also I find it laughable that you say celebrities are putting out junk products but you your self can't even make a simple studio monitor with dsp what the ? #6 you literally admit you didn't plan anything and expect good results ? I feel like you should self reflect and really do better research useing vituixcad to learn more about speaker building.

I already use Vcad but you seem to be confident that I don't for whatever reason.

When you say couldn't design a simple studio monitor, there is no such thing as a simple studio monitor, it's quite a task to reach. If anything, I've learned the issues with popular designs that may claim to be monitors but don't really offer the performance. I have made smaller boxes that I'd consider monitor worthy with DSP, not really that difficult to get something decent sounding but if you want something really good it can be tough.

XRK vanguard was reviewed recently here and it looks pretty bad, I have some Paul Carmody speakers that don't really come close to some of the stuff I've made, yet when trying to point out issues with some speakers you're met "lots of people think they sound great".

Things just get tricky when you want something really damn good. I don't believe any aspect of the DXT MON was reached easily for instance. I don't find your comments nearly as constructive as others tbh.

As far as diyaudio goes, I think I've met 3 people whos opinions I value and respect the help they've offered, the rest who have chimed in literally sound like obsessed crazy people to me.

I'm curious. What's your specific issue with this design? I realize this is a decidedly and intentionally retro design of his. I have not built or heard it.

His other speakers are a lot more modern. I've built and loved the Classix, Amiga, S2000 MTM, Overnight Sensation, and Overnight Sensation MTM. I have been thrilled with all of them and think they deliver outstanding value.

The imaging and sound stage is quite poor to my ears, they do get quite loud and stay clear though. I haven't hooked them for a bit though so it's hard to tell, but I do have the Amiga and while they have pros I find they have some cons that annoy me, largely related to the woofer beaming and hefty bunching in the xover region. I'm the only person who's measured them so far and I hear their issues. I intended to use the "pit vipers" (worth noting they aren't really as I don't use the stock xover) for mid field monitoring, but I'm looking at other things for that now, namely the VBS 10.2 which looks to offer incredible performance for the cost.

I'm going to be attending to the parts express design competition this weekend, I hope to enjoy myself.

 

[Duke]

I started designing and building speakers as an amateur in 1979. Over the next fifteen or so years I came up with many different ways to build a bad transmission line, and a few ways to build a good one.

In the mid 90's I tallied up the projected parts cost for my most ambitious design to date and realized that I could buy used Quad 63's for about the same price. So I did that instead. Subsequently I upgraded to SoundLabs and became a SoundLab dealer. Several years after that I returned to my roots and started building and selling my own loudspeaker designs.

Imo there are three big leaps involved in going from amateur to manufacturer:

The first leap is going from "I like my speakers" to "some other people like my speakers."

The second leap is going from "some other people like my speakers" to "some other people like my speakers enough to want to buy them."

The third leap is going from "some other people like my speakers enough to want to buy them" to "... and they are willing to pay a price that I can make money on."

Nothing brings me more joy than creating music...

For the past fortysomething years my creative outlet has been loudspeaker design. During that time I have only built three pairs of speakers that started out as kits, versus close to two hundred original designs (mostly failed experiments, some for home audio and some for prosound). My best speakers were always my next speakers, in my mind at least. I have always had more ideas than time, so I have tended to explore various roads less traveled.

For the record I was already doing my own time-gated spin-o-ramas three years before Floyd Toole's book came out. But this post is not about the technical side.

I'd really love to hear what people think, not so much on the technical criticisms of it all, but the more personal and spiritual aspects I described.

Interesting that you used the word "spiritual". There have been times when I felt like a loudspeaker design idea chose me, rather than the other way around. Have you ever felt like a tune chose you? Maybe something like that.

Imo music deeply listened to can be transformational, almost like a very-little-effort-required version of deep meditation. Imo for men music can play a particularly important role because it's a place we can go to feel things that normally we suppress. I get satisfaction from making a contribution to the signal chain for some people.

 

[Wolf]

I look forward to meeting you. I'll be there with 2 of my projects.

 

[JohnBooty]

The imaging and sound stage [of the Pit Vipers] is quite poor to my ears, they do get quite loud and stay clear though.

Okay.

I intended to use the "pit vipers" (worth noting they aren't really as I don't use the stock xover)

Er--- whaaat? You don't like Carmody's Pit Viper design, but also you're... not using the xovers that Carmody designed?

 

[JohnBooty]

Imo music deeply listened to can be transformational, almost like a very-little-effort-required version of deep meditation. Imo for men music can play a particularly important role because it's a place we can go to feel things that normally we suppress. I get satisfaction from making a contribution to the signal chain for some people.

This is one of the most wonderful things I've read on this forum. I definitely form a deep emotional connection to music. I really enjoy "active listening" where it's just me and the music, front and center.

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

Okay.


Er--- whaaat? You don't like Carmody's Pit Viper design, but also you're... not using the xovers that Carmody designed?

Sorry I didn't mean to say I didn't like the pit vipers, I was stating that I didn't find the metrics shared for the speaker to be up to snuff.

Interesting that you used the word "spiritual". There have been times when I felt like a loudspeaker design idea chose me, rather than the other way around. Have you ever felt like a tune chose you? Maybe something like that.

All the time, generally when I really need it the most.

"But there's a light
If you dare to believe it
That floods in and washes all away
Blood sweat and tears won't retrieve it
You just have to wait to receive it"

SOHN - Lights

 

[JohnBooty]

It's hard to make something better than what you can buy for the same costs - Companies that make speakers have time and money to throw at making prototypes

I haven't taken detailed spin measurements so feel free to stop reading this section now if you like.

However my experience with Carmody's designs and in-house designs from PE and DIYSG is that their flat-pak kits perform on a level with commercial speakers costing multiples as much. While that is a purely subjective opinion, I've got thousands of hours listening to the JBL 3-series monitors which are really objectively well-behaved and extensively measured by ASR and others so I'm not totally ungrounded IMHO.

Sorry I didn't mean to say I didn't like the pit vipers, I was stating that I didn't find the metrics shared for the speaker to be up to snuff.

I feel like I understand your issue with Carmody's designs to an extent. I've often wished he'd provide (at a minimum) off-axis measurements. I've wondered if that's a consideration for him at all. Of course... since this is just a hobby of his I'm happy for him to do as little or as much as he wants and I'm grateful for him.

Still, I'm awfully confused by your assessment of the Pit Vipers. Did you try the stock crossovers as Carmody designed them before implementing something else?

I don't mean to nitpick your views or anything. I just want to understand. And, as a fan, I was considering building the Pit Vipers at some point.

 

[Wolf]

Truth in point, he changed the drivers' relative positions, the edge treatments, the xover, and if memory serves, also changed the tweeters because he preferred them over the ones Paul used.

This is also acknowledged by the builder, and that he went his own direction after disappointment likely because he changed it so much initially.

If you build a DIY project designed by one of the 'famous' names, you should stick to the design as verbatim as possible. This eliminates a lot of the variables or chances that the build will not be a success.

The mostly unwritten set of rules was clearly ignored in this case.

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

I haven't taken detailed spin measurements so feel free to stop reading this section now if you like.

However my experience with Carmody's designs and in-house designs from PE and DIYSG is that their flat-pak kits perform on a level with commercial speakers costing multiples as much. While that is a purely subjective opinion, I've got thousands of hours listening to the JBL 3-series monitors which are really objectively well-behaved and extensively measured by ASR and others so I'm not totally ungrounded IMHO.


I feel like I understand your issue with Carmody's designs to an extent. I've often wished he'd provide (at a minimum) off-axis measurements. I've wondered if that's a consideration for him at all. Of course... since this is just a hobby of his I'm happy for him to do as little or as much as he wants and I'm grateful for him.

Still, I'm awfully confused by your assessment of the Pit Vipers. Did you try the stock crossovers as Carmody designed them before implementing something else?

I don't mean to nitpick your views or anything. I just want to understand. And, as a fan, I was considering building the Pit Vipers at some point.

I mean on offense but I find the whole comparison of a speakers performing better than commercial offerings at x price to be a bit tiresome. Stuff like "they punch above their weight" and the like I think I've heard spoken for just about every speaker these days. If the advent of easily accessible analysis has taught us anything it's that companies are making some pretty bad speakers at every price point. You can get a pair of Behringer 2031a for less than the Amigas and with some EQ, they are simply better. Both speakers need EQ IMO anyway.

So far my favorite PE kit would be the C-notes, I honestly find the performance you get to be crazy for the low cost. I'm personally in agreement with Heissmann Acoustics that even dispersion (his site calls it bundling behavior) is likely one of the most important aspects of a speaker and I think it's something a lot of designs don't incorporate. Who cares if you can make a speaker flat on axis, that's easy. Give it smooth directivity index as well, now that's much harder.

If you're curious I did some amiga measurements long ago. I don't consider them to measure particularly well and listening wise I find imaging quite troublesome as well as brightness I can't get rid of which I assume is the off axis bloom centered around 4-5k. I think the drivers could have been integrated better.

As for pit viper, I did have stock xover. Didn't think it measured right at all and it sounded really bright, no body to anything likely from the lower mid dip, not sure why the mid was sloping down like that. Granted I couldn't really line up the speaker with the center on my little measurement turntable as the speakers are so big and heavy. It's still just kind of a mess IMO. Bass is what it is, done outside but I can only raise the speakers so high. The designer didn't chime in on this one when I shared the info on parts express forum so I don't really know what to make of it. I kind of assumed it was an intentional tuning to account for being put on the floor, which I didn't do as they needed to be at tweeter+ear height.

This is a tweeter in waveguide that I made an adapter for that I was working on. I gave it to a friend as I was kinda overwhelmed with different projects. This is on an 8" baffle with no round overs. I find this to be impressive performance compared to the other designs above which I'd argue offer poor tweeter performance resulting in degraded stereo image. I utilized it in a two way for awhile and it sounded great.

So perhaps I've just been picking the wrong designs to build

 

[JohnBooty]

I find the whole comparison of a speakers performing better than commercial offerings at x price to be a bit tiresome [....] You can get a pair of Behringer 2031a for less than the Amigas and with some EQ, they are simply better

I definitely agree that cheap, well-designed active monitors (JBL, Kali, Behringer) have performance unmatched by passive DIY designs, or any affordable passive designs really.

In a more apples-to-apples comparison I think that affordable DIY passives truly do tend to outperform commercial passives in terms of price/performance by a large margin. I think your take seems to be that pretty much any affordable passive speaker is going to be bad in various objective ways and that is true. I would say that they still manage to be awfully enjoyable in many cases for recreational use.

If you're curious I did some amiga measurements long ago. I don't consider them to measure particularly well and listening wise I find imaging quite troublesome as well as brightness I can't get rid of which I assume is the off axis bloom centered around 4-5k. I think the drivers could have been integrated better.

After his initial Amiga design in 2009, Vifa updated the tweeters some years ago and the revised version is 2dB hotter. I wonder if that's what you're hearing. Carmody suggests an easy fix for this.

As for pit viper, I did have stock xover. Didn't think it measured right at all and it sounded really bright[...] I kind of assumed it was an intentional tuning to account for being put on the floor, which I didn't do as they needed to be at tweeter+ear height.

Seems like a reasonable conclusion, in absence of direct confirmation from the designer.

Above all else, thanks for the additional information. It's really appreciated.

 

[Mnyb]

To underscore why it's hard to beat commercial designs in 2023: In maybe the 50s-70s there was some math involved, but also more trial and error in commercial designs. Today you have whole teams of engineers simulating beyond the capability of DIY folks before they walk over to the 3D printer and fabricate a whole cabinet in one go.

They also get their parts a lot cheaper than you do.

Their one disadvantage is they have to ship and sell that speaker at a profit, which is why there is any daylight at all for DIY designs.

But if you can't beat commercial designs with a soldering iron and a can-do attitude, well, that is nothing to be ashamed of. We're up against highly trained professionals with really expensive tools.

+1

Imho another thing that limits commercial designs is that they have to consider size and cosmetics into their design to able to sell , here also an opening for DIY .

And for example off advantage for commercial speakers KEF and JBL and others also designs and produce their own drivers and can get precisely what they want for a design .