Zu Audio speaker solutions

[mhardy6647]

Yes, I have tried an expensive tube integrated amplifier on loan to me, I also tied a Hiraga pure class A amp, and various well designed class AB mosfet amps. Same awfull results. The designer of these speakers also makes a point that they are very efficient, Ok but they are also high impedence so that if you use them with a 50 Watt amp you now have a 25 watt amp, unless it's a tube amp, of course.

You gave 'em your best shot, then.
Next shot, perhaps, should involve a projectile.

 

[fpitas]

Tom is a wonderful fellow with lots of practical experience when it comes to hifi audio reproduction, too.
The classic Klipsch MR horns, and the cheap PA drivers they genearlly used with them, are horrible things to listen to.
I suspect PWK wan't being ironic when he embraced the term squawker for midrange reproducers.

I cannot tolerate screetchy loudspeakers
Altec did much better, as did may others. As you know, I have been using EMILAR 500 Hz horns on my 'real' loudspeakers after trying quite a few of the affordable alternatives including the 511B.

... unfortunately, none of this will help a Zu owner, except (possibly) for option creation -- but ASR folks in gerneral don't seem to be particularly interested in high sensitivity loudspeakers. Oh, well...

511s have been a labor of love. It's not surprising a lot of people have been stymied. I was too dumb to give up, though, so I made them work.

I have some Emilars in the back room, but never booted them up. It looks like later JBL horns borrowed the Emilar throat-to-horn flare transition format from Emilar.

 

[FrantzM]

A case of lipstick on a pig ... Zu speakers are bad. No adverb necessary. Lot of money for poor piss performances... The HEA is replete of such nonsenses: SET amplifers are another case... Some cost upward of $100,000.oo while sporting 10% THD ... SINAD? SINAD?
Zu stands on the threshold of what High End Audio deems to be affordable, they start a round $1,000.oo ... a JBL 308 would make minced meat of most (probably all) of their lineup.


Peace.

 

[fpitas]

A case of lipstick on a pig ... Zu speakers are bad. No adverb necessary. Lot of money for poor piss performances... The HEA is replete of such nonsenses: SET amplifers are another case... Some cost upward of $100,000.oo while sporting 10% THD ... SINAD? SINAD?
Zu stands on the threshold of what High End Audio deems to be affordable, they start a round $1,000.oo ... a JBL 308 would make minced meat of most (probably all) of their lineup.


Peace.

But the JBL 308 has a horn. Any audiophile knows they honk

 

[peanuts2]

Hello. simply put, a speaker consisting of a 10" woofer and a 1" or 2" compression driver with minimal waveguide and NO crossover will never work. they could be lucky with the on-axis frequency response, but in this case they are not. all the measurements look awful on-axis and even worse off-axis. not to mention the breakup distortion etc that follows with no xo.
a 10" driver MUST have an xo around or below 1500hz, with an equaliy matched waveguide. if they dont then the polars will not be good.
some people believe a crossover "colors" the sound, when actually it adjusts the sound for your comfort and performence.

you can make a good speaker with light to medium drivers and a good crossover. you can NOT make a good speaker with high-end drivers and no crossover.

 

[fpitas]

Hello. simply put, a speaker consisting of a 10" woofer and a 1" or 2" compression driver with minimal waveguide and NO crossover will never work. they could be lucky with the on-axis frequency response, but in this case they are not. all the measurements look awful on-axis and even worse off-axis. not to mention the breakup distortion etc that follows with no xo.
a 10" driver MUST have an xo around or below 1500hz, with an equaliy matched waveguide. if they dont then the polars will not be good.
some people believe a crossover "colors" the sound, when actually it adjusts the sound for your comfort and performence.

you can make a good speaker with light to medium drivers and a good crossover. you can NOT make a good speaker with high-end drivers and no crossover.

Noobs usually think high-end drivers are easy-peasy to use. They're high-end, right? In this case though, I have no clue what the designer thought he accomplished.

 

[peanuts2]

He believes no crossover will give cleaner and more dynamic sound, some nonsense like that. There is little evil about some caps and coils, they are there for a reason. ALL high-end speakers are 3 or 4-way for a reason.

 

[mhardy6647]

I just (re) read Stereophile's review of the Soul Supremes. OK, I skimmed Herb's part (although I do like Herb, I really do!). I read @John Atkinson 's part, though.

Zu Audio Soul Supreme loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the Zu Audio Soul Supreme's frequency response in the farfield; for the nearfield frequency responses, I used an Earthworks QTC-40, which has a ¼" capsule and thus doesn't present a significant...

www.stereophile.com

Said he (in part):

"Finally, the Zu Soul Supreme's cumulative spectral-decay or waterfall plot (fig.7) looks awful, with a significant resonant mode at 2.8kHz—that accounts for Herb's presence-region rise—and hashy-looking delayed energy in the top audio octave. Yet, other than noticing a somewhat clanky quality with recordings of acoustic piano, I didn't find the Zu to sound as bad as this graph implies. In fact, I enjoyed the afternoon I spent listening to the speakers in Herb's system. As with Zu Audio's Essence speaker, reviewed by Art Dudley in October 2009, Sean Casey appears to have carefully balanced the Soul Supreme's performance to sound more neutral than its measured behavior would suggest, allowing the listener to appreciate its high sensitivity and evenly balanced midrange."

Now, I haven't researched it but I am suspecting that this may be the only-ever appearance of the word clanky in an audiophile loudspeaker review.

I also note that JA measured the sensitivity as about 6.5 dB lower than claimed -- guess Zu is takin' pages from Klipsch's playbook.

 

[fpitas]

"Clanky" must mean it fully emphasizes the harmonic interconnectedness of the PRAT.

 

[jae]

If you want to save yourself future grief, stop reading reviews and just buy speakers with comprehensive/CEA2034 measurements, learn to read and interpret them if you don't know how to. At the very least this data must come from the manufacturer, but ideally should come from one or more trusted 3rd-party sources.

See: https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/scores.html

I would say you could safely ignore speakers below 6.0 in general, other than a couple exceptions. If you are using properly integrated subs there is a bit more versatility. As far as I'm concerned the benchmark for passive is probably Polk R200 and for active it is Neumann KH 80. Look for speakers at or above these on the list and buy according to your needs/budget/preferences and you are guaranteed to have a top speaker. Simple. There is no need to waste time and energy and speculate on things that aren't verified, even if first impressions are good.

 

[FrantzM]

Zu is proof incarnate of the power of HiFi reviewers: On their own, these speakers sound awful. You need to be convinced by the reviewers THose quasi-deities, possessors of Golden ears, Golden pen (or keyboards) and highly resolving (Read " "Expensive") Audio systems to be convinced to buy these.
I have to remind myself , that I come from this very world. I have bought some expensive nonsenses on the "words" of some reviewers. As late as 2012, I bought a few DACs based on positive reviewers from TAS. They all sounded the same to me but I felt that I wasn't getting the best possible from my systems (Headphones-based then) or the DAC because, maybe it was the amplifiers, so I went and got a Tube amp (!!!) s which couldn't drive my Denon or my HifiMan HE-400 well but it wasn't the amp simply synergy , perhaps a different headphones , I tried to convince myself of the superiority of the Stax ESL , in spite of its complete absence of bass and mid-bass ( Yep this is an hyperbole) .. So I invested in a some mono-crystalline copper cable for the HiFiMan and they weren't cheap and ... ... As for the DACs, the least expensive was about $1,500.oo...
In passing, I posted about thinking of getting a Zu in a heavily subjective Audio website. One soul whom I forgot , PM-ed me cold to beg me to redirect my energy and money toward something else... anything else ...
Then Amir invited me to join ASR...

Thanks Amir, thanks for ASR ...

as for J.A. ..... I will remain polite but ... Man! ... ...
Peace.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Zu is proof incarnate of the power of HiFi reviewers: On their own, these speakers sound awful. You need to be convinced by the reviewers THose quasi-deities, possessors of Golden ears, Golden pen (or keyboards) and highly resolving (Read " "Expensive") Audio systems to be convinced to buy these.
I have to remind myself , that I come from this very world. I have bought some expensive nonsenses on the "words" of some reviewers. As late as 2012, I bought a few DACs based on positive reviewers from TAS. They all sounded the same to me but I felt that I wasn't getting the best possible from my systems (Headphones-based then) or the DAC because, maybe it was the amplifiers, so I went and got a Tube amp (!!!) s which couldn't drive my Denon or my HifiMan HE-400 well but it wasn't the amp simply synergy , perhaps a different headphones , I tried to convince myself of the superiority of the Stax ESL , in spite of its complete absence of bass and mid-bass ( Yep this is an hyperbole) .. So I invested in a some mono-crystalline copper cable for the HiFiMan and they weren't cheap and ... ... As for the DACs, the least expensive was about $1,500.oo...
In passing, I posted about thinking of getting a Zu in a heavily subjective Audio website. One soul whom I forgot , PM-ed me cold to beg me to redirect my energy and money toward something else... anything else ...
Then Amir invited me to join ASR...

Thanks Amir, thanks for ASR ...

as for J.A. ..... I will remain polite but ... Man! ... ...
Peace.

My Zu story: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zu-audio-what-is-going-on.1105/post-29133

 

[Prana Ferox]

I was really hoping 'constant directivity filter' was going to be followed with a picture of the Zu's with a paper towel tube shoved over the phase plug

 

[fpitas]

If you want to save yourself future grief, stop reading reviews and just buy speakers with comprehensive/CEA2034 measurements, learn to read and interpret them if you don't know how to. At the very least this data must come from the manufacturer, but ideally should come from one or more trusted 3rd-party sources.

See: https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/scores.html

I would say you could safely ignore speakers below 6.0 in general, other than a couple exceptions. If you are using properly integrated subs there is a bit more versatility. As far as I'm concerned the benchmark for passive is probably Polk R200 and for active it is Neumann KH 80. Look for speakers at or above these on the list and buy according to your needs/budget/preferences and you are guaranteed to have a top speaker. Simple.

I won't argue, although the Zus are deeply flawed even on-axis. I'd be running for the EQ.

My Zu story: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zu-audio-what-is-going-on.1105/post-29133

OK. That right there is comedy gold.

 

[fpitas]

I was really hoping 'constant directivity filter' was going to be followed with a picture of the Zu's with a paper towel tube shoved over the phase plug

Maybe it just means you face them to the wall.

 

[mhardy6647]

"Clanky" must mean it fully emphasizes the harmonic interconnectedness of the PRAT.

Jaw-droppingly clanky.

 

[mhardy6647]

My Zu story: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zu-audio-what-is-going-on.1105/post-29133

Evoking the "Marshall McLuhan" scene in Annie Hall.

(full disclosure: I am an inveterate, albeit unwitting, conversation listener-inner-onner )

 

[garyrc]

I still haven't heard the old Klipschorns like the La Scala. From what I understand, that might help me understand people's aversion to horns.

The aversion to horns is hardly universal.

Some of the very best speakers I've heard have been horn loaded, at several times the price of the Klipsch versions. The new Klipsch Jubilee shows great promise.

But, IMO, Klipschorns sound amazingly musical and like a live orchestra (I've played in 5, if you count school, used to eat lunch in front of one rehearsing, and have been a frequent classical, romantic period, and contemporary concert goer). They have sounded great (low distortion and incredible dynamics) in the three rooms I have had Klipschorns in, and also at all of the audio stores in which I have heard them (except The Good Guys). The Cornwall isn't quite as good, and doesn't have the precise bass of the Khorns. The La Scala and the Belle definitely need a subwoofer, preferably a horn loaded one. Just as my dislike of the La Scala was reaching the max, I walked into a cheesy little store where they sounded great! When the monarch asked the wise men for a saying that would always be appropriate, they suggested, "It all depends."

The LaScalas are unbalanced due to the size of the bass horn, with very little in the way of LF output. That's what makes them the hardest-to-take of the "heritage" Klipsch lot, for me.
I can absolutely tolerate the K-horns, but the best ones I've heard were so modified as to barely be K-horns any more.

The Klipschorn sound can be optimised 1) in a properly treated room 2) with either Audyssey, the highest Dirac, Trinnov, etc. 3) for some recordings, further EQed with TLC 4) a high ceiling 5) a thick carpet, or area rugs 6) more than 13-15 feet away 7) on tweeter axis 8) in a large room 9) containing the newest stock upgrades from Klipsch (we brought our 1980 Klipschorns up to the 2005 level by installing a Klipsch upgrade -- we could hear the difference, although subtle, with most music. One subtle improvement resulted from adding 2' x 4' absorbers to the walls where a yardstick pressed flat across the front of the midrange horn would touch the side wall, with the absorbers reaching 2 feet farther into the room, from there. This advice came from Chris A, an engineer who is on the Klipsch forum, in his article, "Corner Horn Acoustics." These absorbers are in a completely different location than the position dictated by the "mirror test."

How about distortion? At THX's highest peak SPL of 105 dB (above 80 Hz; subwoofers can go 10 dB higher) would be a decent place to measure. IM (Modulation or Doppler)

https://www.stereophile.com/content/red-shift-doppler-distortion-loudspeakers-page-3)

distortion is generally the most serious. I fully realize that these measurements were taken by different people, in different locations, at different times -- just like subjective listening tests. So, at 105 dB, then:

Speakers	IM distortion at 105dB (fs) at ~~14'	THD at 105 dB (fs) at ~~14'
Klipschorn	1.7% Slightly Audible	0.25%
AR 4-way AR 98RS	2.7% Clearly Audible and slightly Annoying	~3% Audible
Fried Studio 4	10% Clearly Audible & Annoying	4% Audible
Platinum Studio 2	7% Clearly Audible and Annoying	1.9% Audible					​
From reviews by Heyser, Keele, Jr., and others.
		.

 

[fpitas]

The aversion to horns is hardly universal.

Some of the very best speakers I've heard have been horn loaded, at several times the price of the Klipsch versions. The new Klipsch Jubilee shows great promise.

But, IMO, Klipschorns sound amazingly musical and like a live orchestra (I've played in 5, if you count school, used to eat lunch in front of one rehearsing, and have been a frequent classical, romantic period, and contemporary concert goer). They have sounded great (low distortion and incredible dynamics) in the three rooms I have had Klipschorns in, and also at all of the audio stores in which I have heard them (except The Good Guys). The Cornwall isn't quite as good, and doesn't have the precise bass of the Khorns. The La Scala and the Belle definitely need a subwoofer, preferably a horn loaded one. Just as my dislike of the La Scala was reaching the max, I walked into a cheesy little store where they sounded great! When the monarch asked the wise men for a saying that would always be appropriate, they suggested, "It all depends."


The Klipschorn sound can be optimised 1) in a properly treated room 2) with either Audyssey, the highest Dirac, Trinnov, etc. 3) for some recordings, further EQed with TLC 4) a high ceiling 5) a thick carpet, or area rugs 6) more than 13-15 feet away 7) on tweeter axis 8) in a large room 9) containing the newest stock upgrades from Klipsch (we brought our 1980 Klipschorns up to the 2005 level by installing a Klipsch upgrade -- we could hear the difference, although subtle, with most music. One subtle improvement resulted from adding 2' x 4' absorbers to the walls where a yardstick pressed flat across the front of the midrange horn would touch the side wall, with the absorbers reaching 2 feet farther into the room, from there. This advice came from Chris A, an engineer who is on the Klipsch forum, in his article, "Corner Horn Acoustics." These absorbers are in a completely different location than the position dictated by the "mirror test."
View attachment 229370

How about distortion? At THX's highest peak SPL of 105 dB (above 80 Hz; subwoofers can go 10 dB higher) would be a decent place to measure. IM (Modulation or Doppler)

https://www.stereophile.com/content/red-shift-doppler-distortion-loudspeakers-page-3)

distortion is generally the most serious. I fully realize that these measurements were taken by different people, in different locations, at different times -- just like subjective listening tests. So, at 105 dB, then:

Speakers	IM distortion at 105dB (fs) at ~~14'	THD at 105 dB (fs) at ~~14'
Klipschorn	1.7% Slightly Audible	0.25%
AR 4-way AR 98RS	2.7% Clearly Audible and slightly Annoying	~3% Audible
Fried Studio 4	10% Clearly Audible & Annoying	4% Audible
Platinum Studio 2	7% Clearly Audible and Annoying	1.9% Audible					​
From reviews by Heyser, Keele, Jr., and others.
		.

That's where I have absorbers too, my 511-based monstes have to live in the corners of my smallish music room. Good post, I don't think a lot of people appreciate the low distortion one gets from a horn.

 

[Purité Audio]

Low distortion from a horn!
Keith