Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[Doodski]

Hydrogen is better than e-fuel, but unless some better efficiencies can be found it too is not economically reasonable currently.

The more I learn about hydrogen and using carbon sequestration the more I doubt the success of the hydrogen generation facilities being built in my city and the distribution and use of said hydrogen. As it seems according to @j_j hydrogen will not play nice with ferrous pipes and that means it can't be used for home heating across the city of ~ one million unless the distribution piping is up to the task. The experts here in my home city say hydrogen can be used for rail and trucking and then more experts here at ASR have advised that it does not play nice in any situation and leaks and temperature of storage are extreme and cause more issues.

 

[MediumRare]

The more I learn about hydrogen and using carbon sequestration the more I doubt the success of the hydrogen generation facilities being built in my city and the distribution and use of said hydrogen. As it seems according to @j_j hydrogen will not play nice with ferrous pipes and that means it can't be used for home heating across the city of ~ one million unless the distribution piping is up to the task. The experts here in my home city say hydrogen can be used for rail and trucking and then more experts here at ASR have advised that it does not play nice in any situation and leaks and temperature of storage are extreme and cause more issues.

The biggest issues are efficiency: 30% to compress and then more lost to fuel cells (net 33% efficiency), combustion is even worse. Just storing and using the electricity is better.

 

[Doodski]

The biggest issues are efficiency: 30% to compress and then more lost to fuel cells (net 33% efficiency), combustion is even worse. Just storing and using the electricity is better.

Are these hydrogen companies expecting some sort of breakthrough in the production and handling of hydrogen? I ask because some pretty large successful corporations are retaining hydrogen as a product offering and as a future option for sale. Toyota and Honda are both planning a longer term commitment to hydrogen vehicles. It's all pretty confusing the more I realize the inefficiencies of hydrogen as you stated and more details that I gleaned from other peeps here @ ASR about hydrogen as a fuel and energy source.

 

[MediumRare]

Are these hydrogen companies expecting some sort of breakthrough in the production and handling of hydrogen? I ask because some pretty large successful corporations are retaining hydrogen as a product offering and as a future option for sale. Toyota and Honda are both planning a longer term commitment to hydrogen vehicles. It's all pretty confusing the more I realize the inefficiencies of hydrogen as you stated and more details that I gleaned from other peeps here @ ASR about hydrogen as a fuel and energy source.

I believe it’s mainly carry-over from 5-10 years ago when batteries were out of the question and the ICE-based companies were still thinking about some form of improved combustion. The Japanese have been the slowest of anyone to embrace full-electric so naturally they are betting on anything that might avoid them having to play catch up to the Chinese (all-in on electric and batteries) and the US (Tesla and the IRA).

 

[beefkabob]

Articles like this about hydrogen and syn fuels are missing the fact that in many locations there is a glut of solar energy for several hours every day and it is getting worse due to subsidies and incentives. Wholesale power rates go negative at mid day in many locations. The last thing many areas need is more solar capacity. What is needed is some way to store all the excess power and get it to where it is needed when it is needed. Hydrogen and syn fuels can be part of the solution even if they are not as effecient as some other technologies.

A glut of solar several hours a day is not something that will support a hydrogen economy. You'd have to build tremendous excess capacity of solar, and then you'd have to build the hydrogen infrastructure. It's the most circuitous path imaginable to solving the problem. Not gonna happen.

 

[Newman]

Are these hydrogen companies expecting some sort of breakthrough in the production and handling of hydrogen? I ask because some pretty large successful corporations are retaining hydrogen as a product offering and as a future option for sale.

It's still on the map because the total lifecycle emissions (as opposed to energy efficiency) is a story that is yet to play out before we know the winner. What will long term battery tech really look like in terms of mining, materials supply, disposal? - we don't yet know. Will hydrogen for transport end up an orphan, or will it be integrated into a total hydrogen economy emerging for the stationary economy, in which case transport hydrogen gets spinoff benefits? -too early to call. Where will stationary energy generation end up? Not sure.

When push comes to shove and humanity more widely awakens to the existential threat of global warming, then it may well come to pass that whatever transport motive force has the lowest total cycle emissions of GHG will be the only one allowed, and everything else banned, irrespective of price and energy efficiency. If hydrogen is ahead on that score at that time, it wins.

cheers

 

[Blumlein 88]

It's still on the map because the total lifecycle emissions (as opposed to energy efficiency) is a story that is yet to play out before we know the winner. What will long term battery tech really look like in terms of mining, materials supply, disposal? - we don't yet know. Will hydrogen for transport end up an orphan, or will it be integrated into a total hydrogen economy emerging for the stationary economy, in which case transport hydrogen gets spinoff benefits? -too early to call. Where will stationary energy generation end up? Not sure.

When push comes to shove and humanity more widely awakens to the existential threat of global warming, then it may well come to pass that whatever transport motive force has the lowest total cycle emissions of GHG will be the only one allowed, and everything else banned, irrespective of price and energy efficiency. If hydrogen is ahead on that score at that time, it wins.

cheers

Hydrogen will never win. At best it is an energy medium not an energy source. At best it might rival batteries as an energy medium. However it will have many issues that are not as economical or practical as batteries.

 

[MediumRare]

It's still on the map because the total lifecycle emissions (as opposed to energy efficiency) is a story that is yet to play out before we know the winner. What will long term battery tech really look like in terms of mining, materials supply, disposal? - we don't yet know. Will hydrogen for transport end up an orphan, or will it be integrated into a total hydrogen economy emerging for the stationary economy, in which case transport hydrogen gets spinoff benefits? -too early to call. Where will stationary energy generation end up? Not sure.

When push comes to shove and humanity more widely awakens to the existential threat of global warming, then it may well come to pass that whatever transport motive force has the lowest total cycle emissions of GHG will be the only one allowed, and everything else banned, irrespective of price and energy efficiency. If hydrogen is ahead on that score at that time, it wins.

cheers

Even if the logic of lowest emissions plays out (I don’t see how it could as fuel cells are also filled with minerals) I don’t believe governments such as China and the US will sacrifice economics. Physics alone says the green liquid H2 end-to-end process wastes 2/3 of the electricity inputed. Then, don’t forget all the other grid storage options plus ultra-deep geothermal is coming. Widespread H2 = dead horse. The only exception is local production of gaseous H2 for local use, which will be 100% industrial applications.

 

[Doodski]

ultra-deep geothermal is coming.

Yes, a geothermal energy source would be a big bonus. Like I've said before the oil and gas industry has all the trained and capable manpower to get into geothermal drilling, setting up the instrumentation and put in place satellite data up/down links for remote monitoring and drill hole management. There is a huge industry in the oil and gas operations and that goes from manufacturing heavy equipment such as drills (Which I have done.), manufacturing wheeled and tracked heavy duty service vehicles for remote operations (Which I have done.), manufacturing downhole tools (Which I have done.) and the analysis of the Earth strata for drill hole locations best suited for drilling. As well there are hundreds of thousands of out-of-service oil and gas drill holes and some of those are ready for geothermal energy extraction. Geothermal energy is in my opinion a huge opportunity for the oil and gas industry.

 

[blueone]

Yes, a geothermal energy source would be a big bonus. Like I've said before the oil and gas industry has all the trained and capable manpower to get into geothermal drilling, setting up the instrumentation and put in place satellite data up/down links for remote monitoring and drill hole management. There is a huge industry in the oil and gas operations and that goes from manufacturing heavy equipment such as drills (Which I have done.), manufacturing wheeled and tracked heavy duty service vehicles for remote operations (Which I have done.), manufacturing downhole tools (Which I have done.) and the analysis of the Earth strata for drill hole locations best suited for drilling. As well there are hundreds of thousands of out-of-service oil and gas drill holes and some of those are ready for geothermal energy extraction. Geothermal energy is in my opinion a huge opportunity for the oil and gas industry.

The Wall Street Journal just recently published an article on the topic. Unfortunately, you probably can't read it without an expensive subscription:

Can the Oil-and-Gas Industry Crack Geothermal Energy?

Geothermal energy has been a neglected corner of renewable energy because of its high cost and high risk profile.

www.wsj.com

Here's an excerpt:

The combination of high risk and cost is to blame. Like fossil fuels, searching for a good geothermal resource involves subsurface risk. And while oil and gas can be permitted and drilled relatively quickly, geothermal projects can take seven to 10 years to bring online because of regulatory and financial barriers, according to a 2021 National Renewable Energy Laboratory report. The unsubsidized levelized cost of energy for geothermal in 2021 was roughly double that of wind and photovoltaic solar energy, according to Lazard. Geothermal projects’ rate of return is around 6% to 8%, similar to that of solar and wind projects, according to the study by the Texas university researchers. That is well below the double-digit return oil-and-gas companies seek.

 

[MediumRare]

Yes, a geothermal energy source would be a big bonus. Like I've said before the oil and gas industry has all the trained and capable manpower to get into geothermal drilling, setting up the instrumentation and put in place satellite data up/down links for remote monitoring and drill hole management. There is a huge industry in the oil and gas operations and that goes from manufacturing heavy equipment such as drills (Which I have done.), manufacturing wheeled and tracked heavy duty service vehicles for remote operations (Which I have done.), manufacturing downhole tools (Which I have done.) and the analysis of the Earth strata for drill hole locations best suited for drilling. As well there are hundreds of thousands of out-of-service oil and gas drill holes and some of those are ready for geothermal energy extraction. Geothermal energy is in my opinion a huge opportunity for the oil and gas industry.

Yes, the idea is every existing coal or gas-fired power plant can have geothermal onsite. All the turbines and distribution is already in place. Free energy forever. The trick is the new gyrotron "drill-head" that allows drilling to depths of 20 km. It’s in testing now. https://newatlas.com/energy/quaise-deep-geothermal-drilling-questions/

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[Ron Texas]

https://insideevs.com/news/665454/ford-ceo-says-ev-price-cuts-worrying-trend/

Ford just cut the price on the Mustang EV by $4k. Last week I saw there was a 122 day supply on dealer lots. Perhaps demand does not exceed the supply of all EV's

 

[blueone]

https://insideevs.com/news/665454/ford-ceo-says-ev-price-cuts-worrying-trend/

Ford just cut the price on the Mustang EV by $4k. Last week I saw there was a 122 day supply on dealer lots. Perhaps demand does not exceed the supply of all EV's

Where did you read about the 122 day supply on dealer lots? I just looked at the inventory of the two largest Ford dealers in our state, and they had zero inventory of Mustang Mach-Es. Everything listed on their web sites is "in transit".

 

[Doodski]

Yes, the idea is every existing coal or gas-fired power plant can have geothermal onsite. All the turbines and distribution is already in place. Free energy forever. The trick is the new gyrotron "drill-head" that allows drilling to depths of 20 km. It’s in testing now. https://newatlas.com/energy/quaise-deep-geothermal-drilling-questions/

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Very exciting stuff for me to read about. I am amazed at the oil and gas industry and geothermal is a step up from that so it's really cool I think.

Quotes from the article.>>>

Is the supercritically heated water likely to be highly corrosive to the above-ground equipment?
Yes, but there are many supercritical power stations in use today. The materials exist to handle it.

Hastelloy and other alloys of stainless steel are already able to sustain and work in the corrosive high temperature environment. This is what the downhole pressure, temperature, torque and strain tools where constructed of that I assembled, serviced and performed QA/QC upon.

Would it not be cheaper and easier just to access geothermal heat reserves closer to the surface?
Of course; it would also be easier to just access wind and solar. The problem is that there is not enough of it to power the civilization we have created with fossil fuels.

Bore holes with downhole tools performing measurements that I have assembled have gone as far as conventional drilling can take them. I am not familiar with the general specifications of the bore holes as I never worked that aspect of the oil and gas industry. What I do know is downhole tools calibrated to operate @ 178C have been returned to be service by me and they have been burned internally. The formerly green PCB would be brown/baked and the components melted and corrosion was rampant due to the high temp strategic O-rings not sustaining the temp range encountered in a conventional drill bore. So... I think there's energy in them thar shallow depth holes! The high temp O-rings are banned from being exported to certain countries so they are rated as strategic.

Could this idea be economically adapted into shallower 1-2-km (0.6-1.2-mile) holes simply to provide warm water for hydronic heating and other purposes?
Certainly, we intend to do that too. This is not just about 20 km; there is plenty of value to unlock starting at 100-meter deep holes.

See above^^^.

 

[SIY]

Where did you read about the 122 day supply on dealer lots? I just looked at the inventory of the two largest Ford dealers in our state, and they had zero inventory of Mustang Mach-Es. Everything listed on their web sites is "in transit".

I didn't search the eastern part of NY (like NYC and burbs), but here in the western rurals, there's 4 on dealer lots. If I want to cross the state line, that goes up to 23. No idea if that's a big inventory or not.

 

[blueone]

I didn't search the eastern part of NY (like NYC and burbs), but here in the western rurals, there's 4 on dealer lots. If I want to cross the state line, that goes up to 23. No idea if that's a big inventory or not.

Interesting. I was just looking at a Ford dealer in Dallas, TX, and their inventory shows two Mach-Es in stock. At an AutoNation Ford dealer in Denver, one in inventory, the rest in transit. I really doubt the 122 day supply data. Hoping Ron will name his source.

 

[Ron Texas]

Where did you read about the 122 day supply on dealer lots? I just looked at the inventory of the two largest Ford dealers in our state, and they had zero inventory of Mustang Mach-Es. Everything listed on their web sites is "in transit".

https://caredge.com/guides/new-car-inventory-2023

It took me 2 minutes to find this as I had not saved the original story.

Ford has a problem, not just with this EV.

 

[blueone]

https://caredge.com/guides/new-car-inventory-2023

It took me 2 minutes to find this as I had not saved the original story.

Ford has a problem, not just with this EV.

Thanks. Based on my random search it doesn't seem credible.

 

[Timcognito]

Ford has a problem, not just with this EV.

But not with trucks just meeting demand there.

 

[SIY]

Thanks. Based on my random search it doesn't seem credible.

Well, with 23 of them in range for me without even looking at NYC-LI-Albany-Pittsburgh, I suspect someone with a checkbook could get one today. I have the checkbook, just not the desired checking account.