Value AVR with pre-outs (for Fosi Audio V3 Monos)

[Zuiko]

Time to upgrade from my NAD T747...

I'm looking for a surround unit (5.1-7.1) with pre-outs that will feed the upcoming Fosi Audio V3 Monos. Is Marantz the only affordable option with the Cinema 70s? For Denon/Onkyo/Sony/Yamaha it seems you need to go over $2k to get pre-outs! (And sound processors are way out of budget). Any specific units I should be looking at with solid surround processor, DAC, and pre-amp which could use external power to shine?

(Yet to be determined that the sound would be upgraded, but on paper at least it looks promising)

Thx!

 

[TonyJZX]

your thoughts are echoed here

it used to be that even mid range units used to have full pre-outs but these guys do their market research and they found out that in most cases they always remained unused?

and so now even above mid range units have no pre-outs or they are inconsistent... you may get only L/R or L/C/R but its rare to see ALL

like you i have only seen the base slimline marantz 70 that has full preouts but even that is a $1k unit???

and expect MIDDLING if not mediocre performance

ALSO they dont do dirac on the cheapest unit so make note of what Auddissey you get...

you may compromise to just LCR? the rears dont require high power so use the inbuilt amps?

 

[ppataki]

Have you considered using a PC as the source?
That way you only need a Topping DM7 DAC that actually beats any AV processor in terms of sound quality
All DSP is done in the PC using Jriver
And you have Dirac too

 

[pogo]

Teufel Decoderstation 7
Nubert NuXinema
Canton Smart Connect 5.1

 

[Zuiko]

Teufel Decoderstation 7
Nubert NuXinema
Canton Smart Connect 5.1

First time I see these brands. How do they compare to the traditional AVRs?

ps. The Canton does not have pre-outs.

 

[Zuiko]

Have you considered using a PC as the source?
That way you only need a Topping DM7 DAC that actually beats any AV processor in terms of sound quality
All DSP is done in the PC using Jriver
And you have Dirac too

Wowsers, never came across this solution before.
However if a PC is the source, my understanding is streaming services (Netflix etc.) do not send Dolby/DTS via browser. Hence is this just for files on the PC?
Thx

 

[pogo]

ps. The Canton does not have pre-outs.

 

[pogo]

How do they compare to the traditional AVRs?

I have several Decoderstation in operation and am very satisfied with the sound quality: Link

 

[ppataki]

However if a PC is the source, my understanding is streaming services (Netflix etc.) do not send Dolby/DTS via browser. Hence is this just for files on the PC?

I am not sure about streaming since I only play downloaded multichannel content
I know that there are apps (Netflix app, etc.) that might be able to play the multichannel content properly - you need to check that out
btw if they are capable of playing the multichannel content then you can apply Jriver's DSP engine on that signal too using its WDM driver for Windows (that way basically all sound in Windows will be passed through Jriver's DSP engine = per channel volume, delay, EQ, optionally Dirac Live and a virtually unlimited number of any VST plugin)

 

[peng]

Time to upgrade from my NAD T747...

I'm looking for a surround unit (5.1-7.1) with pre-outs that will feed the upcoming Fosi Audio V3 Monos. Is Marantz the only affordable option with the Cinema 70s? For Denon/Onkyo/Sony/Yamaha it seems you need to go over $2k to get pre-outs! (And sound processors are way out of budget). Any specific units I should be looking at with solid surround processor, DAC, and pre-amp which could use external power to shine?

(Yet to be determined that the sound would be upgraded, but on paper at least it looks promising)

Thx!

My understanding is that the V3 mono has selectable gains of 25 or 31 dB if you use the RCA inputs. That kind of gain is high enough for just about any Denon or Marantz models that offer rca pre outs. Can you not find a left over AVR-X3700H at very affordable prices? The Cinema 70 can definitely drive the V3, but it does not have Audyssey XT32 SubEQ HT. The Denon AVR-X3500H through X3800H seem to be the value AVRs if you only need up to 7.1.

 

[Zuiko]

Had to lookup up Audyssey.

Marantz Cinema 70: MultEQ
Marantz Cinema 60: MultEQ XT
Marantz Cinema 50: MultEQ XT32

Denon X3500H: MultEQ XT32
Denon X3700H: MultEQ XT32
Denon X2800H: MultEQ XT
Denon X3800H: MultEQ XT32
Denon S970H: MultEQ XT32

I'll def. look more into this!

 

[rynberg]

Time to upgrade from my NAD T747...

I'm looking for a surround unit (5.1-7.1) with pre-outs that will feed the upcoming Fosi Audio V3 Monos. Is Marantz the only affordable option with the Cinema 70s? For Denon/Onkyo/Sony/Yamaha it seems you need to go over $2k to get pre-outs! (And sound processors are way out of budget). Any specific units I should be looking at with solid surround processor, DAC, and pre-amp which could use external power to shine?

(Yet to be determined that the sound would be upgraded, but on paper at least it looks promising)

Thx!

You're worried about budget but want to spend $1k buying 7 monoblocks???

Even a Denon 4800 supplies comparable power (actually more into 8 ohms) and you don't need to mess around with 7(!) monoblocks...

EDIT: BTW, the Denon S970H does not have XT32, it's an error on Denon's website.

 

[Zuiko]

You're worried about budget but want to spend $1k buying 7 monoblocks???

Even a Denon 4800 supplies comparable power (actually more into 8 ohms) and you don't need to mess around with 7(!) monoblocks...

EDIT: BTW, the Denon S970H does not have XT32, it's an error on Denon's website.

Here are a few of the reasons:
(1) I am done with 30+ pound amplifiers a-la 4800. Class D resolves this.
(2) Summer coming up, I'd prefer less heat.
(3) They don't make a lot of 5.1 channel 100w AVRs these days (I am currently on 5.1 btw). They force you to pay for more power and channels simultaneously.
(4) In theory a lower-end model like the Cinema 70s (still 20 pounds, sigh) with monoblocks will give me the equivalent power of the cinema 50s/40s ($2.5k-3.5k)
(5) Scalability to add more channels/monoblocks, without replacing a $3000 AVR.

As for sound quality, it is yet TBD what will sounds better. It's all theory right now, but I imagine I'm not alone in thinking in this direction.

In home theatre separates possibly make even more sense than in most other applications? How many consumers use a 9.1 or even 11.4 amp in a 5.1 setup?

 

[er|κzvio1in]

Teufel Decoderstation 7
Nubert NuXinema
Canton Smart Connect 5.1

It would be awesome if a company were to develop a device like that, with (e)ARC input, quality DAC, but then also with multiple independent subwoofer outputs and manual DSP with optional Dirac. I bet a lot of enthusiasts would buy that.

 

[rynberg]

Here are a few of the reasons:
(1) I am done with 30+ pound amplifiers a-la 4800. Class D resolves this.
(2) Summer coming up, I'd prefer less heat.
(3) They don't make a lot of 5.1 channel 100w AVRs these days (I am currently on 5.1 btw). They force you to pay for more power and channels simultaneously.
(4) In theory a lower-end model like the Cinema 70s (still 20 pounds, sigh) with monoblocks will give me the equivalent power of the cinema 50s/40s ($2.5k-3.5k)
(5) Scalability to add more channels/monoblocks, without replacing a $3000 AVR.

As for sound quality, it is yet TBD what will sounds better. It's all theory right now, but I imagine I'm not alone in thinking in this direction.

In home theatre separates possibly make even more sense than in most other applications? How many consumers use a 9.1 or even 11.4 amp in a 5.1 setup?

(1) Seriously, a Denon 4800 only weighs 30 lbs. If you are bigger than the average 10-year old, should be no big deal to handle and how often are you moving it around? Fosi doesn't provide a weight but I'm guessing each monoblock will still weigh at least 3 lbs with the large power brick, so you are talking about dealing with 20+ lbs of monoblocks, all with large annoying power bricks. PLUS a processor to control your signals. How is that an improvement over a single box of reasonable size?
(2) My old Denon 4810 (beast from 2010) was a space heater thanks to the HDMI board (not the amp section), but the most recent D+M product I had, a Marantz SR7012 didn't contribute nearly as much heat. The processor still makes quite a bit of heat from the HDMI board with modern units though.
(3) Don't know what this has to do with buying monoblocks...a receiver is the best and cheapest way to get a processor capable of handling all the types of signals you might want to use.
(4) This example points out my question -- this solution would result in 40+ lbs of gear taking up WAY more space than a 4800 with poorer audio performance for about the same overall cost.
(5) You are still limited by the number of processing channels in the AVR...with a 4800, you have 11.4 channels and 9 amplified channels already. BTW, you could step down to a Denon 3800 and get most of the functionality for $1,700 MSRP.

Your very last question "How many consumers use a 9.1 or even 11.4 amp in a 5.1 setup?", I mean that's how the market works. How complicated do you want to make your system just to avoid buying a single box and not using every last feature of it?

 

[peng]

Here are a few of the reasons:
(1) I am done with 30+ pound amplifiers a-la 4800. Class D resolves this.
(2) Summer coming up, I'd prefer less heat.
(3) They don't make a lot of 5.1 channel 100w AVRs these days (I am currently on 5.1 btw). They force you to pay for more power and channels simultaneously.
(4) In theory a lower-end model like the Cinema 70s (still 20 pounds, sigh) with monoblocks will give me the equivalent power of the cinema 50s/40s ($2.5k-3.5k)
(5) Scalability to add more channels/monoblocks, without replacing a $3000 AVR.

As for sound quality, it is yet TBD what will sounds better. It's all theory right now, but I imagine I'm not alone in thinking in this direction.

In home theatre separates possibly make even more sense than in most other applications? How many consumers use a 9.1 or even 11.4 amp in a 5.1 setup?

I wouldn't worry about the sound quality with the V3s at all as I have been listening to my V3+LS50 (desktop system) every day and have no complaints about it's "sound". People often talked about how their amp sounds, I have no idea why theirs have "sound", without knowing exactly what kind of amps they were talking about. For me, I have quite a few amps, and none of them have "sound" of their own but just the sound of the speakers, rooms, RC/EQ and depends a lot on the recording quality of the sources I played. The V3 performed as good as my other amps that include Marantz, Bryston, Parasound, NAD, Hypex, Purifi, and those I listened to in dealer's demo rooms including those several times more expensive their mine, such as Mc, Passlabs etc.

If you prefer light weights, a good compromise could be just 3 V3 monoblocks and let the AVR power the surround/height channels. As rynberg mentioned, the 48 V bricks for the V3s also have some weight, that to me, is not an issue but if I wouldn't want to have to place and hide 7 of them, so my limit would be 2 or 3, not more.

 

[Zuiko]

I wouldn't worry about the sound quality with the V3s at all as I have been listening to my V3+LS50 (desktop system) every day and have no complaints about it's "sound". People often talked about how their amp sounds, I have no idea why theirs have "sound", without knowing exactly what kind of amps they were talking about. For me, I have quite a few amps, and none of them have "sound" of their own but just the sound of the speakers, rooms, RC/EQ and depends a lot on the recording quality of the sources I played. The V3 performed as good as my other amps that include Marantz, Bryston, Parasound, NAD, Hypex, Purifi, and those I listened to in dealer's demo rooms including those several times more expensive their mine, such as Mc, Passlabs etc.

If you prefer light weights, a good compromise could be just 3 V3 monoblocks and let the AVR power the surround/height channels. As rynberg mentioned, the 48 V bricks for the V3s also have some weight, that to me, is not an issue but if I wouldn't want to have to place and hide 7 of them, so my limit would be 2 or 3, not more.

Good point re potentially just using the monoblocks on Front & Center, thx.

 

[Zuiko]

(1) Seriously, a Denon 4800 only weighs 30 lbs. If you are bigger than the average 10-year old, should be no big deal to handle and how often are you moving it around? Fosi doesn't provide a weight but I'm guessing each monoblock will still weigh at least 3 lbs with the large power brick, so you are talking about dealing with 20+ lbs of monoblocks, all with large annoying power bricks. PLUS a processor to control your signals. How is that an improvement over a single box of reasonable size?
(2) My old Denon 4810 (beast from 2010) was a space heater thanks to the HDMI board (not the amp section), but the most recent D+M product I had, a Marantz SR7012 didn't contribute nearly as much heat. The processor still makes quite a bit of heat from the HDMI board with modern units though.
(3) Don't know what this has to do with buying monoblocks...a receiver is the best and cheapest way to get a processor capable of handling all the types of signals you might want to use.
(4) This example points out my question -- this solution would result in 40+ lbs of gear taking up WAY more space than a 4800 with poorer audio performance for about the same overall cost.
(5) You are still limited by the number of processing channels in the AVR...with a 4800, you have 11.4 channels and 9 amplified channels already. BTW, you could step down to a Denon 3800 and get most of the functionality for $1,700 MSRP.

Your very last question "How many consumers use a 9.1 or even 11.4 amp in a 5.1 setup?", I mean that's how the market works. How complicated do you want to make your system just to avoid buying a single box and not using every last feature of it?

I appreciate your point of view, and most people will probably agree with you.
Cheers,

 

[jaakkopetteri]

It would be awesome if a company were to develop a device like that, with (e)ARC input, quality DAC, but then also with multiple independent subwoofer outputs and manual DSP with optional Dirac. I bet a lot of enthusiasts would buy that.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex-ht (OK, you basically need an Apple TV 4K with it but it checks out otherwise)

 

[rynberg]

I appreciate your point of view, and most people will probably agree with you.
Cheers,

I hope you end up with the system that works best for you!