Stereophile electrical system improvement article

[audio2design]

Residential US, <100

The 17 in the UK was all electrical deaths compared to 400 in the U.S. In Germany I think the number is 30-40. Anyway you slice it, they have less electrocutions. I would argue that with the number of deaths from other causes, far too much money is being spent on electrical safety.

 

[Ingenieur]

based on "rod R" and current
US has more current because of they use more Energy they have only 1/2 phases and halve the voltage.
So if your rod has ~10Ohms and you using like ~30A at home whats the rod Voltage? in case of a LOST PEN

Again lost PEN means the combined Ground and Neutral conductor to the transformer Fails.

Lower "Rod voltage" = lower step potential



the GFCI can’t "see" a broken PEN before the meter and the GFCI can’t detect a current going trough the Safety ground wire.
The GFCI only cares for a balance between Live an neutral.
Again, are you an EE? Let's hope not for safeties sake.



Good thing your thrive for more if this makes you feel good but engineering is always a balance between cost and benefit.
And of cause there is a defined allowable risk. To make proper evaluations there need to be an allowed risk because it will never be 0.

We could not do anything if we would try to reduce risk to 0.

???
How can you have V drop without I.
Captain obvious.
Have you had ANY formal training in EE?
What is 1/2 phase.
We have 1 phase and 3 phase.
Homes a 1 phase.

Rod = 0 V

A GFI will trip if ground is lost
Zero Sequence Current
Current will flow thru the CT but not return thru it.

It works just fine without a ground
Most will trip if not grounded but can be wired to work without one.

Is GFCI Protection & Grounding The Same - HomeInspectionInsider

You can use a GFCI outlet to protect a non-grounded outlet Everyone uses electricity daily. It is used within our homes to run various appliances and electronics daily, and we can't imagine life without it. However, we must protect ourselves from the dangers of electricity, and one of the most…

homeinspectioninsider.com

However, you are not required to have a proper ground to install GFCI protection. In fact, if you have non-grounded wiring, you need GFCI protection.

 

[Ingenieur]

The 17 in the UK was all electrical deaths compared to 400 in the U.S. In Germany I think the number is 30-40. Anyway you slice it, they have less electrocutions. I would argue that with the number of deaths from other causes, far too much money is being spent on electrical safety.

Not based on this
It is greater

Causes of death

www.destatis.de

Accidents and injuries statistics - Statistics Explained

EU statistics are presented on deaths resulting from accidents, injuries and assault.

ec.europa.eu

Number of deaths where the underlying cause was exposure to electric current; by sex and five year age group, England, 2001 to 2017 - Office for National Statistics

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[audio2design]

I disagree.
If a hazard is identified you don't say good enough.
You address it.

No. That is narrow sighted. Resources are not unlimited. You see an "easy" decision to add say $250 to the cost of every house to save a few lives. I see $100's of millions of dollars that can be better spent saving lives elsewhere.

- The requirement for nail plates between drywall and stud (where wire runs) was always "obvious" but it was initially considered acceptable risk
- GFI existed for decades before it was mandatory for outdoor outlets
- We still have a ton of overhead wires, though underground would be safer, why? Cost/benefit/competing requirements

 

[Ingenieur]

No. That is narrow sighted. Resources are not unlimited. You see an "easy" decision to add say $250 to the cost of every house to save a few lives. I see $100's of millions of dollars that can be better spent saving lives elsewhere.

- The requirement for nail plates between drywall and stud (where wire runs) was always "obvious" but it was initially considered acceptable risk
- GFI existed for decades before it was mandatory for outdoor outlets
- We still have a ton of overhead wires, though underground would be safer, why? Cost/benefit/competing requirements

You are incorrect.
You always seek improvement.
Period.
The goal is zero

They were not considered 'acceptable'.
They were not 'identified'
Once they were, they were addressed

 

[Mart68]

I don't buy the 17

Number of deaths where the underlying cause was exposure to electric current; by sex and five year age group, England, 2001 to 2017 - Office for National Statistics

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[Spkrdctr]

The BS is palpable .....

"He also pointed out uncovered outdoor AC receptacles that he said probably "sparked" when wet; that, too, would produce line noise."

If they sparked, most likely they would trip a breaker. So many people "think" about stuff and make conclusions that have no basis in reality. I remember back when I was very young, in Jr. High School, a neighbors car could pull in the driveway or go down the street and you could hear a bunch of static, noise, hums and whines in the stereo until the car got a good 50 yards away from our house. Now that is serious noise!

 

[Ingenieur]

Number of deaths where the underlying cause was exposure to electric current; by sex and five year age group, England, 2001 to 2017 - Office for National Statistics

www.ons.gov.uk

I posted that
That is why I don't buy it.

 

[Ingenieur]

Electrical fires make up the largest portion of damage and fatalities, with 15,432 occurring in England over 2015/2016. This caused around 1380 deaths and injuries, with over 80% of them caused by appliances or other products.

 

[Koeitje]

The 17 in the UK was all electrical deaths compared to 400 in the U.S. In Germany I think the number is 30-40. Anyway you slice it, they have less electrocutions. I would argue that with the number of deaths from other causes, far too much money is being spent on electrical safety.

Or the low amount of deaths shows that spending that money has positive effect.

 

[DonH56]

Seems like this is getting more personal and potentially political as it goes on...

 

[Ingenieur]

When you factor in
Population
GDP (do more, more exposure)
Building rate, much more construction = more exposure
Power consumption, more utilization = more exposure
More area=more lines=more exposure

We are almost 1/2 the risk

 

[Ingenieur]

Too far off topic and nationalistic

A lower ground bed provides no advantage in a residential setting.

The work described in the OP is silly, but it's his money.
It yielded no audible benefit but may have made his system more code compliant with the exception of the IG.

The xfer switch 'issue' is laughable.

It is hard to debate matters like this without knowing the CV of those involved who rely upon Google without understanding. It is hard to explain complex to those who do not understand the basics, this is not meant to demean, I would not argue accounting with a CPA.
The www has made everyone an expert in everything, lol.

It's like arguing law with a lawyer or surgery with a doctor. I personally would avoid that.
Dunning-Kruger

 

[Spkrdctr]

With Lightning you do the best you can but Lightning doesn’t read the NEC and almost anything can happen. Best to have one plug to pull when it nears…

Yes. 100% true. I have repaired a lot of commercial equipment from lightning strikes. Lightning does not follow electrical rules. It does crazy stuff such as jumping large air gaps to fry whatever it wants to fry. Just when you think you have it all figured out, a new strike does something different. For Federal TSA communications lightning wiring, the projects were very robust and had good over kill. But, when you plan accordingly the strike never happens! LOL So, you plan and prepare but lightning is a tough customer, and he is always right!

 

[Lambda]

If a hazard is identified you don't say good enough.
You address it.

Some don't stop there they even address potential hazards.
Like this nema plugs you can easily touch while halve way plugged in
Easy to address but they don't bother beaus good enough?

How can you have V drop without I.

You know how the quoting system here works? you can Quote parts of my post and put them all in a single post.
Makes it easier to follow along.
So where did i say without current?

Have you had ANY formal training in EE?

Yes

What is 1/2 phase.

Residential 1 phase system but maybe you want to call it 2 phase because it’s technically 2 phases with 180° phase angel.

Rod = 0 V

nice mantra but nor true if current is going in the rod and the rod has resistance to ground.

A GFI will trip if ground is lost

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see this video if you don't understand
(you just have to imagine an extra Ground rod with some impedance to ground )

A lower ground bed provides no advantage in a residential setting.

it does in the fault case of "Open Service Neutral" aka "broken PEN"

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And no FI or CGFI won't protect in this case.

 

[audio2design]

One last post, then I am done with this thread.

- From what I can tell, they are not even "officially" tracking specific electrocution deaths in German or Europe any more as the number has become exceptionally low. I suspect they collect it for industrial purposes.

- In 2010, the EU needed to use UK/France data to extrapolate for the rest of Europe as only the UK and France were collecting electrocution death data. It looks like in 2017, there were 12 deaths due to electrocution in the UK, and perhaps 3 or 4 in a residential setting.

- Almost all the effort w.r.t. electrical safety is now on preventing fires causes by electricity which is a far greater cause of death and economic loss.

By absolutely any measure I can find, the number of electrocution deaths in modern Europe is much lower than the U.S. (and Canada), and much lower in a residential setting. This does not appear to be disputable.

Arguably, in both geographic regions, failure of the neutral from the distribution transformer to the residence is such a non-issue that it is a total waste to even discuss it. There are infinitely bigger issues in the world and our respective regions w.r.t. what you are likely to die from. Heck the stress of this thread is probably a bigger threat

Your philosophy of sacrificial deaths is one I can't subscribe to.

I am okay with that, because from where I see it, you are sacrificing far far more people so that you can check a box in your corner of the world, as opposed to looking at the big picture and looking at where limited resources can best be applied. Its a failure of our silo society, and unfortunately the limited capacity of the human brain. Perhaps our future AI overlords will not have such issues ;-) It is in keeping with the outrage culture in some ways as well. People are "outraged" that someone died and it could have been "prevented", but never considering how many people do die prematurely and what is best done to keep that number low. Whether you die of electrocution, heart disease, car accident, drowning, house fire, opiod overdose, etc., you are still dead.

 

[Lambda]

Can’t make it more clear.
Wit a broken PEN a RCD/CGFI/FI won’t trip because IL=IN
Ipe = IL - "earth rod current"

In other words Vtouch = Vline * (R ground rod / (R ground rod + R Appliance Load) )

Or the lower the earth rod resistance the lower Vtouch

 

[Spkrdctr]

Only on ASR can you have a rip roaring huge dust up argument over grounding. I like when the engineers and other associated "almost" engineers get in a good internet brawl. ASR brings out the best in everyone!

 

[Ingenieur]

Some don't stop there they even address potential hazards.
Like this nema plugs you can easily touch while halve way plugged in
Easy to address but they don't bother beaus good enough?


You know how the quoting system here works? you can Quote parts of my post and put them all in a single post.
Makes it easier to follow along.
So where did i say without current?

Yes


Residential 1 phase system but maybe you want to call it 2 phase because it’s technically 2 phases with 180° phase angel.


nice mantra but nor true if current is going in the rod and the rod has resistance to ground.

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www.mikeholt.com

see this video if you don't understand
(you just have to imagine an extra Ground rod with some impedance to ground )

it does in the fault case of "Open Service Neutral" aka "broken PEN"

404 Error - Page Not Found

Ready to take an electrical exam? For over 40 years we have been designing electrical exam preparation products that work. Choose one of our best-selling products and get the skills, the knowledge and the confidence you need to pass your exam.

www.mikeholt.com

And no FI or CGFI won't protect in this case.

It's not a hazard
The distance limits it
By the time it makes contact you can't get you fingers in, the stabs are recessed.

It is not 2 phase.
I would not call it that since it is incorrect.
They are referred to as Line, not phase.
It is single split phase wired with a coil in opposition. The source is single phase.
It will not start a motor.
2 phase

Not true
Kirchhoff
The rod resistance itself is <0.01 Ohm
A 100 A would yield 1 V

In you picture
G is always < 25
The voltage is at the utility rod, not yours
It is 0

 

[Ingenieur]

Some don't stop there they even address potential hazards.
Like this nema plugs you can easily touch while halve way plugged in
Easy to address but they don't bother beaus good enough?


You know how the quoting system here works? you can Quote parts of my post and put them all in a single post.
Makes it easier to follow along.
So where did i say without current?

Yes


Residential 1 phase system but maybe you want to call it 2 phase because it’s technically 2 phases with 180° phase angel.


nice mantra but nor true if current is going in the rod and the rod has resistance to ground.

404 Error - Page Not Found

Ready to take an electrical exam? For over 40 years we have been designing electrical exam preparation products that work. Choose one of our best-selling products and get the skills, the knowledge and the confidence you need to pass your exam.

www.mikeholt.com

see this video if you don't understand
(you just have to imagine an extra Ground rod with some impedance to ground )

it does in the fault case of "Open Service Neutral" aka "broken PEN"

404 Error - Page Not Found

Ready to take an electrical exam? For over 40 years we have been designing electrical exam preparation products that work. Choose one of our best-selling products and get the skills, the knowledge and the confidence you need to pass your exam.

www.mikeholt.com

And no FI or CGFI won't protect in this case.

That is the exact case the GFCI protects
I thru body and earth, not N or G
It will return to the xfmr ground which is actually much lower.

That video is absurd.
Yes, if you lick a bus bar you will be shocked.

A lower bed has 0 impact.
None
In fact US beds are likely lower.
But moot compared to 1000 Ohm


You are over your head.