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Mivera Audio DAC

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Mivera

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So they acknowledge your limited build is below their standards for safety and performance?

No it's perfectly safe. However if it was a mass produced unit we would have made a few changes. Like rather than using the softstart board for the switching, built a custom relay board. But that was gonna cost $2500 for engineering and 25 boards. The Hypex Softstart works just as good for the application, was already designed, and only $40 each.

We wouldn't use an off the shelf case. Likely custom machined instead.

But it would also cost likely 3x the price if we did this. And wouldn't be any safer.
 

Mivera

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Unfortunately the example you gave did.
View attachment 8451

Yeah well Merging is a multi-million $ company. They have a large production facility. The NADAC isn't a limited run 25 unit hand built DAC. They sell worldwide through a large network of dealers and distributors, and move 1000's of units per year.
 

Mivera

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Thomas savage

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Yeah well Merging is a multi-million $ company. They have a large production facility. The NADAC isn't a limited run 25 unit hand built DAC. They sell worldwide through a large network of dealers and distributors, and move 1000's of units per year.
True, was a poor example for you to use. It back fired.

In my expirence of so called high end audio it's full of companies that lack the capital and expertise to really manufacture things properly. They also tend to lack depth in terms of technical personal so ideas often go without proper scrutiny and even worse a lot of the R&D is actually quite old as it was done while the designer/engineer was at a larger company.

Iv observed this situation many times.

Hiend audio is often just executive garden shed, a idolised designer that can do no wrong and no one dares question plus a money man/marketing guy.

Personally I won't got near companies like that anymore.

That is just my opinion based on my own trip through the industry.
 

Mivera

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True, was a poor example for you to use. It back fired.

In my expirence of so called high end audio it's full of companies that lack the capital and expertise to really manufacture things properly. They also tend to lack depth in terms of technical personal so ideas often go without proper scrutiny and even worse a lot of the R&D is actually quite old as it was done while the designer/engineer was at a larger company.

Iv observed this situation many times.

Hiend audio is often just executive garden shed.

Well that should reflect in the end result then. Only thing that reflects in the end result with the Purestream is excellence. Just ask any owner.

Amir keeps going on about safety but there's absolutely nothing unsafe. If the rest of the engineering was poor it would reflect in the sound. So far only reported DAC to sound better out of30+ DAC's is $87000 more expensive. So I don't think I should be shaking in my boots about Amir's criticism. We also have a 10 year warranty so if those regulators that damn near run room temp burn out from overheating, or any other breakdown, I will fix them.
 

Mivera

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Well, let's look at the Nadac and compare it to your "commercial build." Shall we?

First the NADAC:

View attachment 8445

Let's start with safety consideration. Right at input we see the proper colored wire (green+yellow) grounding wiring to the chassis. This is the most important safety consideration. Should hot wire come in contact with the chassis, there must be a stout ground connection as to trip the circuit breaker all the way back in the panel. This is so important that measurement and compliance with the spec is required in both UL and CE. You want to play fast and loose with our customer's lives, and buy yourself a heap of liability, leave this out with the mistaken idea that this has anything to do with audio fidelity.

Yes there is a mains filter. It is right at the inlet of IEC which means no extra mains wiring running around. That is there because this box has a pretty fancy digital subsystem on the right which generates a lot of noise of its own outside of what the DAC will do (board on the right).

Related to above, the box has both CE and FCC regulatory certification. That means they measured it and installed the right mains input filtering as needed to pass emissions standards. It is no hack stuffed in there thinking it will give you "blacker backgrounds, removing veils, etc."

The DAC and output buffer boards are together with proper layout putting the dac away from the analog output. The balanced connectors are all PCB mounted with no hand wiring. There are no cards on top of cards with connectors which can get loose, get dirty, etc.

Negatives are lack of retainers for the cabling. They are all dangling loose. Like to see these tied to the chassis.

Now let's compare this to Mike's "commercial build:"

View attachment 8446

Right away we see the most important sin: no ground lug from the AC mains! The wires from the AC mains travel through the case and heaven knows where they get grounded if ever, and at how low of an impedance. On this basis alone, this build gets an "F" for design and safety.

As we know, there is no FCC or CE certification to catch any flaws in this design and as such, it is illegal to import into EU or US.

The enclosure is too small relative to Nadac. Notice how mains components are stuffed so near sensitive analog electronics. Ditto for switchmode power supply. See how far apart it is in Nadac versus here. The enclosure looks big due to lack of scale but in reality it is a mini-component box.

Then there is that useless soft-start whose functionality is in the switchmode power supply and it is only needed for linear supplies with large transformers. Insertion of that requires more mains wiring both leading to it and leaving it.

The switchmode power supply is put in backward. It's mains input needs to face the input IEC connector as to shorten that distance. Instead it is turned 180 degrees requiring again, for mains wiring to run everywhere.

Due to inexperience, the regulators are mounted in a line by the bottom heatsink. These don't dissipate much power. They should have their own small heatsinks allowing optimal layout which is NOT lining them up like soldiers and lengthening their path to their load. Bulk capacitor on the output is also misplaced as that needs to be on the load boards, not regulator.

I could go on but here is the net of it: any professional engineering looking at Mike's DAC would instantly say it screams hobbyist, kit assembly. That is what it is.

The NADAC DAC on the other hand, says "designed by professionals." Yes, it also screams "low volume" with handwiring that is there. But otherwise, you can't criticise it much by just looking at it. And you can be comfortable from safety point of view knowing that it has passed regulatory testing.

And we all know this conclusion is true. Mike is not an electrical engineer. Never worked as an electrical engineer. Doesn't understand any of these circuits beyond their superficial block diagram functionality. So he makes mistakes.

Now if he built this for himself, cool. But selling it to others and claiming it safe and CE compliant? Give me a break.

I will summarise: in my opinion his design is not safe or performant. Until he shows proper independent safety and performance data, that is what it is.

And even in this early prototype the green safety ground is there. It's just connected at the front where the ground input of the supply is located. If you look close you can see part of it under the black cables:

IMG_1247.jpg
 

Mivera

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I am really surprised. World's 2nd best DAC and it could move past a single page at headfi - only couple of posts ? I am sure there is a conspiracy theory against you at headfi as well :eek:

I didn't say the worlds best marketing team. I haven't spent a penny on marketing. Unfortunately people buy brands not products.
 

Thomas savage

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Well that should reflect in the end result then. Only thing that reflects in the end result with the Purestream is excellence. Just ask any owner.

Amir keeps going on about safety but there's absolutely nothing unsafe. If the rest of the engineering was poor it would reflect in the sound. So far only reported DAC to sound better out of30+ DAC's is $87000 more expensive. So I don't think I should be shaking in my boots about Amir's criticism. We also have a 10 year warranty so if those regulators that damn near run room temp burn out from overheating, or any other breakdown, I will fix them.
Still worth aspiring to a more ideal layout imo

I think we can now leave it there, we will just be repeating ourselves.

There's different points of view, it's my job to make sure all sides are free to represent themselves and Iv done that.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute mike, I hope in the future we can stick to a more cordial dialogue that's in keeping with these last few pages.

That's all I want.
 

pinkupanda

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I didn't say the worlds best marketing team. I haven't spent a penny on marketing. Unfortunately people buy brands not products.

Imagine what would have happened if you did. It would move from world's 2nd to 1st ;)
 
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