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Article: Understanding Digital Audio Measurements

NTK

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I've noticed I sometime get a metallic taste from canned soda but never did a blind test of it.
The can taste may even come from having your mouth on the can?
Have someone pour Solo cups of canned and one of bottled and see if you can ID one from the other reliably 50 times.
And without a chemical analysis it's even possible that coke uses a slightly different formula for different containers from some unknown reason.
Besides all that, Coke is mouthwash, Pepsi is the best cola. ;)
May be that's the taste of the Sherwin-Williams coatings (the same people that make your house paints) ;)
One of my former bosses had a visit to a Coors beer canning factory to check out their UV curing systems for their beer cans. He told us once you have seen what they do with beverage cans, you wouldn't want to drink beer from a can again.
 

Sal1950

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About Coca-Cola, this is my personal impression. So with cables.
Forgeting about Coca's for a bit, lets discuss the science of audio
I'll just start by posting a short couple paragraphs from Peter Aczel writings a couple
decades back.

"1. The Cable Lie
Logically this is not the lie to start with because cables are accessories, not primary audio components. But it is the hugest, dirtiest, most cynical, most intelligence-insulting and, above all, most fraudulently profitable lie in audio, and therefore must go to the head of the list.

The lie is that high-priced speaker cables and interconnects sound better than the standard, run-of-the-mill (say, Radio Shack) ones. It is a lie that has been exposed, shamed, and refuted over and over again by every genuine authority under the sun, but the tweako audio cultists hate authority and the innocents can’t distinguish it from self-serving charlatanry.

The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies. The signal has no idea whether it is being transmitted through cheap or expensive RLC. Yes, you have to pay a little more than rock bottom for decent plugs, shielding, insulation, etc., to avoid reliability problems, and you have to pay attention to resistance in longer connections. In basic electrical performance, however, a nice pair of straightened-out wire coat hangers with the ends scraped is not a whit inferior to a $2000 gee-whiz miracle cable. Nor is 16-gauge lamp cord at 18-cents a foot. Ultrahigh-priced cables are the biggest scam in consumer electronics, and the cowardly surrender of nearly all audio publications to the pressures of the cable marketers is truly depressing to behold."

If your interested in learning a bit more, take a few minutes to take in the whole rant.
 

MAB

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Edit: to the people who inevitably always have to say "you can't hear the difference between..." in this case -97dB THD+n and -107dB THD+n. My post isn't about that. But I'll say this: you can't hear the difference. And just because you can't do something doesn't mean I (or anyone else) can't do it either! Listening is an ability and a skill which you need to develop and maintain. The difference to me between DACs 10dB apart (with otherwise similar characteristics) isn't night and day, and some tracks I wouldn't be able to tell the difference... but given my library of music and my setup and 10 minutes? I can hear the difference!)
Sorry, but no.
The burden of proof is on you to prove you have special hearing abilities not previously found in humans.
Since you have gone right to spinning your wheels on datasheets and specs, you might take a step back and read up on science, start here:
You will find that the claims of special hearing abilities you make were investigated in the '70s and '80s. There are actual researchers who did experiments. And people with allegedly great hearing skills (in fact much more practiced and experienced then you and me and all your friends put together) uniformly cannot hear differences you claim. In fact, practice has nothing to do with it. We just can't hear the differences you claim.
 

mike7877

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Sorry, but no.
The burden of proof is on you to prove you have special hearing abilities not previously found in humans.
Since you have gone right to spinning your wheels on datasheets and specs, you might take a step back and read up on science, start here:
You will find that the claims of special hearing abilities you make were investigated in the '70s and '80s. There are actual researchers who did experiments. And people with allegedly great hearing skills (in fact much more practiced and experienced then you and me and all your friends put together) uniformly cannot hear differences you claim. In fact, practice has nothing to do with it. We just can't hear the differences you claim.

I know what I can hear... If you're in Southwestern Ontario we can meet up some time, I'll bring two DACs to the local HiFi shop - one -97dB THD+n, and one -107. We'll set them up, I'll play some tracks through both not knowing which DAC is which, and afterwards, I'll identify the DACs!

Proving something online just can't be done... No matter what I do I'll just be accused of lying.

If you are nearby and we do meet, when you learn that I can in fact distinguish between -97 and -107, what will that accomplish? You'll be on here saying I can, and a ton of people will be saying you're wrong and I'm wrong and we're both liars! And if for some reason they can't dispute the results, they'll criticize the method...
 

voodooless

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If you're in Southwestern Ontario we can meet up some time, I'll bring two DACs to the local HiFi shop - one -97dB THD+n, and one -107. We'll set them up, I'll play some tracks through both not knowing which DAC is which, and afterwards, I'll identify the DACs!
If you are able to do this, who says it’s the distortion difference that makes it audible?

Proving something online just can't be done... No matter what I do I'll just be accused of lying.
Nobody accused you of lying. You think the difference is real. Without any controls and proper testing, that isn’t surprising.

As for proving online, you can use a proxy to check how well you do in detection distortion:


Give it a go, it’s usually very humbling.
 

MAB

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Proving something online just can't be done...
Not true. You are confusing competition vs. demonstration.
voodooless posted a great reference. You should try some of these tests. Everything isn't a competition. But you can demonstrate to yourself what the thresholds are for various auditory phenomena, what is reasonable, and what might matter.
Here's J.Stone
1699253112188.png
 

mike7877

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If you are able to do this, who says it’s the distortion difference that makes it audible?
Here's a fun story: When I was four and starting kindergarten, an audiologist came to check our hearing. I don't know why, but probably to find any kids with hearing issues that parents weren't aware of and so didn't tell the school. The audiologist brought a tone generating machine with her, and put it on a table. It was a simple machine with maybe 3 or 4 knobs and a few switches - couple holes for headphones. The test was, we had to put the headphones on and the audiologist would make the machine make a sound and we had to tell her when we could hear it. When Ms. Audiologist turned the dial to 1, I heard the tone: probably 2kHz or so. It was clear, in both ears. I told her I could hear it, and immediately I could tell she didn't believe me. She asked me "in which ear?", and I told her "both". She then said to me "you don't hear it, you watched me turn the dial!" she went on to tell me that lying was bad and acted annoyed and told some other person there (I think it was the teacher's assistant or something -IDK it was a long time ago). Anyway, she then turned the dial to 2, and I told her it was louder. She said I was lying again because "nobody hears it this quiet". Then she told me to stop looking at the machine. I don't know why she didn't just turn the thing so I couldn't see it and then ask me when I could hear the tones if she didn't trust me, but she didn't. Anyway... I let the wench get to 4 and told her I could hear it then. She checked both ears and then that was that! I guess if literally nobody ever hears 1, and 2 is extremely rare, and 3 is great, then she's probably not going to believe a 4 year old. IMO she could've been a little less accusatory about it. Anyway, there's another anecdote- my hearing is exceptional...
You might ask me why I remember this... I think it's because it's one of my first emotional memories of me, solo, in the world. Emotional? Yeah! An adult was accusing me of being dishonest, and she did it repeatedly. Since I am (and have always been) an honorable person, it cut me deep. Obviously I have more life experience now, so being called a liar doesn't affect me as much (I won't remember it decades later...). If I knew a bit more then, I would've made that dang audiologist turn the machine so I couldn't see it, or I would've turned myself around so I couldn't see it - demonstrated my ability and truthfulness, and she could feel however she'd feel about it (you can't make anyone feel shame - shame comes from within)

To answer, though - I do think that it's either a combination of THD and x, or a product of THD which is responsible. Whatever the case, though, THD is generally a pretty good indicator for what's going to sound clearer than what. Not always though... I have one example: I have an SMSL m100 DAC which is spec'd to be around -100dB THD+n. I measured it myself with my Babyface Pro to be between -99 and -100. It should sound better and more detailed than a [n otherwise really well designed] DAC that's -94dB THD+n. But no - it's not! The Arcam rDAC, -94dB THD+n, beats the m100 in clarity and imaging (stage is wider). There's nothing specifically wrong with how the m100 sounds, it is the opposite of engaging, though - and worse in the ways I described the rDAC being better.

Nobody accused you of lying. You think the difference is real. Without any controls and proper testing, that isn’t surprising.
Of course I've done testing, just not double blind. I've done blind tests, and they've (obviously) been witnessed...

This is anecdotal, but: on so many occasions, my system has sounded off to me, and when I've checked the settings, nearly always there's a reason!
On the other side of that... I almost never find something to be off when I'm randomly in the settings. I don't want you to take this as a reason, just as part of the larger picture that is my understanding of the capability of my hearing.

As for proving online, you can use a proxy to check how well you do in detection distortion:


Give it a go, it’s usually very humbling.

That's a crap test... I tried two songs and they're majorly distorted. On top of that, they lack high frequency information above 7kHz. And additionally, backup vocals and instruments are severely lacking fidelity... The designers of that test are obviously disingenuous. I don't know their motivation for being so, but it's obvious to me that they are. Disingenuous because they're not incompetent. Unless it's nepotism's fault (some guy's nephew got to make the project?)

I wouldn't expect anyone to get past -40. Even with excellent gear with proper room treatment and genuine desire to hit -80+

So I'm not "humbled" by the test - the tracks were cherry-picked to hide distortion! I think I mentioned somewhere in this thread that some songs are a lot easier easier to judge the sound quality of a DAC with than others. To elaborate, usually tracks mixed analog on multi-track tape, on an either ageing or less-than-state-of-the-art machine aren't the best... Cheap mics and primitive compression also contribute to unworthiness... Unless the tape part of the chain is transparent enough that the limited frequency response of, say, the mic on one of the cymbals, is fully captured and thus becomes a character of the track, instead of just horrible on top of horrible and you can't tell where any of it came from! There are exceptions though - and just like when it doesn't sound right when you try to put ZZ Top Afterburner or Judas Priest Painkiller onto a tape (especially Normal bias), the opposite can also be true. It is less common, though.


For this test I was using $25 earbuds... but they're clean! All they need to sound balanced is a gradual increase from 0 to +3dB from 9 to 17kHz, and +5dB in the 40-60Hz range, falling gradually from +5dB to 0 from 60 to 105Hz. They're not quite linear that way, but their harmonic distortion? Absolute gems! I'd put 'em up against any earbud:
If you give them 60Hz and then turn up the volume until your eardrums are like "NOOO!!!!" (yes, they go that loud...) and then you lower the frequency to 23/24Hz to listen for the ultra-low rumble that is 47Hz from the 2nd harmonic, it's literally not there. No third harmonic at 69-72Hz either! Think of how far that 15mm driver has to be moving for 60Hz to literally hurt your ear (it's not a sealed earbud...), and then then think of how much farther it moves at 23Hz.. Then reflect on the fact there was no earth-shaking 47Hz with so much 23Hz!
I can't say for sure how far up the registers this exceptional performance carries, but they're definitely clean enough to discern -30


Humor me: Pretend Klippel was evil. What do they have to gain from convincing people that 1% THD and less is meaningless?
 

mike7877

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Not true. You are confusing competition vs. demonstration.
voodooless posted a great reference. You should try some of these tests. Everything isn't a competition. But you can demonstrate to yourself what the thresholds are for various auditory phenomena, what is reasonable, and what might matter.
Here's J.Stone
View attachment 324388

The test is a farce. The songs - at least the 2/3 I tried - are missing almost everything above 7kHz, have odd processing on the backup vocals/instruments, and (most importantly...) are severely distorted to begin with!! And to a level not much lower than you were able to reach in the test. So congrats! You did about as good as you can without cheating or repeatedly taking the test until chance is your friend.

Since I've been comparing t0he quality of DACs for a long time now (and my hearing's pretty good), I've come appreciate that some songs are good for the task, and others.. are not so good. The songs these Klippel people chose to use... they're pretty pretty far into the "not so good" category.

If I was a scam artist, I'd use those are songs to say to someone "I bet you can't tell the difference between a cassette tape and an audio CD!"
I'd get a tape, and an empty CD. I'd play back the songs and record them to the tape, and then I'd burn the tracks to CD.

I'd then do double-blind and they wouldn't be able to tell the difference and I'd collect $100!


The only way they'd have a hope to win is if the playback level was set so high that the tape hiss became apparent. Since there's so much garbage already in the background of the songs Klippel chose, the only time the hiss would become THAT apparent would be between tracks...


Don't tell me you guys honestly think those distorted songs were even a remotely good choice for the task of testing human distortion threshold...
 

voodooless

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To answer, though - I do think that it's either a combination of THD and x, or a product of THD which is responsible. Whatever the case, though, THD is generally a pretty good indicator for what's going to sound clearer than what. Not always though... I have one example: I have an SMSL m100 DAC which is spec'd to be around -100dB THD+n. I measured it myself with my Babyface Pro to be between -99 and -100. It should sound better and more detailed than a [n otherwise really well designed] DAC that's -94dB THD+n. But no - it's not! The Arcam rDAC, -94dB THD+n, beats the m100 in clarity and imaging (stage is wider). There's nothing specifically wrong with how the m100 sounds, it is the opposite of engaging, though - and worse in the ways I described the rDAC being better.
Again: even if I grant that differences are audible, how do you know that THD is the only discerning factor here?
That's a crap test... I tried two songs and they're majorly distorted
Yes, that's how it starts out...
On top of that, they lack high frequency information above 7kHz
Actually, it has an output up to 10 kHz (at least with the full-range driver). Do you think you can hear 14 Khz 2nd order harmonics?
I wouldn't expect anyone to get past -40. Even with excellent gear with proper room treatment and genuine desire to hit -80+
And yet, some people do...

If you don't like the Kippel test, you can try this:


Get your favorite track, add some distortion and ABX using foobar...
 

Koeitje

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Seems a reality check can be rough for some.
 

mike7877

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Again: even if I grant that differences are audible, how do you know that THD is the only discerning factor here?
omg my first sentence " I do think that it's either a combination of THD and x, or a product of THD which is responsible. "
Yes, that's how it starts out...
omg the "clean" version is dirty... How do you get, from me saying, the source songs are distorted, that "that's how it starts out"

You're acting stupid and assuming I'm even stupider. This isn't productive


Because I have to:
"Actually up to 10kHz"
Person 1: "The divorce rate is 50% and with no-fault divorce, all a woman needs to do is lie or change her mind, and you have to give her half of all your stuff and support her til you die, even though she's "equal" and "don't need no man". If you're smart, you better seriously consider marriage!"
Person 2: "Actually.... if you don't count people who get divorced more than once, the rate is only 40%"
Did person 2 make a good argument to get married?
* the above is hypothetical, divorce is 3% *



"do you think you can hear 2nd order harmonics on 14kHz?"
No, what does that have to do with anything?


And I don't know why you're sending me software where you can't verify the results... I already know my abilities and inabilities, capabilities and sensibilities.
 
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BDWoody

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voodooless

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omg my first sentence " I do think that it's either a combination of THD and x, or a product of THD which is responsible. "
Yet you continue to talk about different DACs with different THD levels...

"do you think you can hear 2nd order harmonics on 14kHz?"
No, what does that have to do with anything?
It means that content above 7 kHz is not relevant if you can't.

And I don't know why you're sending me software where you can't verify the results... I already know my abilities and inabilities, capabilities and sensibilities.
Why can't you verify? You can send through test signals, and check the output, or use Deltawav to compare it to the original. If you don't trust that either, I don't know how to help you...

It seems I was right, you guys are deaf.
Well, it doesn't rob us from reasoning and logic
 
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