Shootout between JBL M2 and Revel Salon 2

[amirm]

Really?

Not doubting, but would love to read where that was documented.

Here you go: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=12794

There are online copies if you are not an AES member. Just google the title.

 

[Cosmik]

The emphasis on measurements seems a bit backwards to me. Surely the emphasis should be on design i.e. you know what you want the speaker to do, so design a speaker to do it. Observing speakers and audiophiles and hoping to find some sort of correlation with their preferences seems somewhat haphazard.

Mr. Putzeys just decides what to do on a rational basis and does it. It seems there is a 100% preference correlation between his speakers and the people who hear them! It is not that mysterious.

I think it illustrates that non-DSP speakers are a conglomeration of multiple compromises regarding crossover audibility, lack of damping, etc. There is still an element of chance in every one of them, and so the correlation of preferences against measurements is still a bit weak - putting it kindly.

 

[Thomas savage]

The emphasis on measurements seems a bit backwards to me. Surely the emphasis should be on design i.e. you know what you want the speaker to do, so design a speaker to do it. Observing speakers and audiophiles and hoping to find some sort of correlation with their preferences seems somewhat haphazard.

Mr. Putzeys just decides what to do on a rational basis and does it. It seems there is a 100% preference correlation between his speakers and the people who hear them! It is not that mysterious.

I think it illustrates that non-DSP speakers are a conglomeration of multiple compromises regarding crossover audibility, lack of damping, etc. There is still an element of chance in every one of them, and so the correlation of preferences against measurements is still a bit weak - putting it kindly.

I kinda agree but I would just say it's more about control. The integrated design of the kii has taken the variables inherent in a system that uses a passive solution and made them known entity's that can be contained and manipulated via DSP .

If I was designing speakers I'd want that control , so from my POV I'm on the side of the intergraded solution.

Also it seems bringing forth the physical engineering a passive requires into reality is a lot more expensive than the DSP software solution of the intergrated speaker.

Alas many don't have the expertise needed for such a intergrated solution , plus if you have spent 30 years perfecting the physical engineering it's hard to trash it and just go DSP.

I do think a better enclosure would benefit the kii three and I'd like better drivers but that might well be 'old thinking' .

But logically I totally agree with @Cosmik

Still I'd not go as far as saying all passives are inherently inferior right now even if ultimately this will be the case.

 

[amirm]

I should say despite the correlation shown in AES paper, no Revel speaker can be released to market without winning double blind tests against its competition.

 

[dallasjustice]

I do think a better enclosure would benefit the kii three and I'd like better drivers but that might well be 'old thinking' .

That's what JA thought as well in the measurement section of the kiiaudio three stereophile review. But @Kal Rubinson apparently didn't hear the box ringing. Kal must not listen with a stethoscope.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker

 

[Blumlein 88]

The emphasis on measurements seems a bit backwards to me. Surely the emphasis should be on design i.e. you know what you want the speaker to do, so design a speaker to do it. Observing speakers and audiophiles and hoping to find some sort of correlation with their preferences seems somewhat haphazard.

Mr. Putzeys just decides what to do on a rational basis and does it. It seems there is a 100% preference correlation between his speakers and the people who hear them! It is not that mysterious.

I think it illustrates that non-DSP speakers are a conglomeration of multiple compromises regarding crossover audibility, lack of damping, etc. There is still an element of chance in every one of them, and so the correlation of preferences against measurements is still a bit weak - putting it kindly.

Initially it isn't backwards. You have to determine what you want it to do, or perhaps more importantly what not to do the signal it is fed.

I assume Harman (and some others as well) now use the model that seems to explain most of the preference among listeners as a target to design toward. That would let you design at lower cost a better speaker. In the past there were many competing ideas and no knowledge of what was most important. Now there in large measure is that knowledge. What was shown to be preferred also isn't extremely radical considering the limits of human hearing. Like phase response and first order crossovers, they don't really make sense as a primary design goal when listeners are relatively impervious to phase above 1500 hz.

 

[Thomas savage]

That's what JA thought as well in the measurement section of the kiiaudio three stereophile review. But @Kal Rubinson apparently didn't hear the box ringing. Kal must not listen with a stethoscope.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker

Oh some objective evidence to back ' what I reckon ' , ummm this 'being proved right' is a nice feeling. I can see why amir courts it so persistently

For me it's a rare occasion to be savoured ..

 

[dallasjustice]

Any audiophile knows you gotta have a speaker weighing a quarter ton due to the enclosure. Why do you think all those Majerco customers never sell their speakers?

Oh some objective evidence to back ' what I reckon ' , ummm this 'being proved right' is a nice feeling. I can see why amir courts it so persistently

For me it's a rare occasion to be savoured ..

 

[Thomas savage]

Any audiophile knows you gotta have a speaker weighing a quarter ton due to the enclosure. Why do you think all those Majerco customers never sell their speakers?

Umm, are you raining on my parade here Michael?? Pissing on my chips?

Majerco ( magico) ?? As in major jerk'offs or just a Freudian slip?

I believe they are reinforced with some aluminium frame? Was told to avoid them as I'd have to send them away ( back to the USA) if I blew a driver and that would be bonkers expensive.

Plus tbh I was not keen on them either... lots of audiophile hype behind them though.

 

[Sal1950]

Majerco ( magico) ?? As in major jerk'offs or just a Freudian slip?

 

[Thomas savage]

I'm not sure what happened in Michaels case but some times the autocorrect can really cut through the BS and tell it how it is

 

[NorthSky]

This is the best thread I've read in a long time, the one from AVSForum...with Floyd Toole and other professional audio experts. ...A serious thread for civilised and intelligent people with a high level of scientific speaker's knowledge. Kudos to the member experts for sharing their thoughts and results.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Any audiophile knows you gotta have a speaker weighing a quarter ton due to the enclosure. Why do you think all those Majerco customers never sell their speakers?

Hey they stole my design ideas for the cabinet anyway. I had this in mind a generation ago. Aluminum isn't so heavy after considering poured in place reinforced concrete. They make boats out of it so why not speaker cabinets.

 

[NorthSky]

Who here owns the Revel Ultima Salon 2? And, are they any good when watching Blu-ray movies in 3D?

 

[hvbias]

I've been wondering whether that 18-20 dynamic range approximation is correct, though. As far as I've understood it, the apps that are used for creating the DR range database for example are employing some smoothing, which means that very brief and highly dynamic transients probably won't show up. My hunch is that the actual, non-smoothed DR on well-recorded stuff probably is more like 30 Db. Not a problem on most studio stuff nowadays, but could be noticeable on actual acoustic recordings.

Another question which is very under-explored, is dynamic homogeneity. When transients occur with lots of information going on at the same time, is the driver able to reproduce all of the frequencies with the same dynamics? If a trumpet shrieks and a bass drum kicks in at the same time, do the frequencies follow the exact and correct dynamic signal? This might be difficult to investigate with steady state test tones. I believe Sweden's Ingmar Öhman has concerned himself with this issue quite a bit.

To horn or not to horn is only one of the issues - the other is whether there's a point in buying amps with much more power than one thinks one needs.

I don't think that the DR meter is a perfect measurement of dynamic range, I was using the 18-20 dB figure from the best recorded classical music (digital recording) where recording engineers have said roughly 20 dB.

 

[amirm]

Who here owns the Revel Ultima Salon 2? And, are they any good when watching Blu-ray movies in 3D?

I do. As does Don.

Have not used them with 3-D movie but even in stereo configuration, I am most impressed by the sound they generate for movies.

 

[NorthSky]

The use of them with 3D movies was simple humor Amir.

Anyway, congrats to you, to Don, and to everyone else who took the time to read that thread from AVSForum, and with the contribution of the famous speaker's scientist...Dr. Floyd E. Toole himself.

If AVScience Forum was all about Science like this thread is there wouldn't be any more wars in the world. Peace would prevail.

* It was well organized, prepared, controlled, and well received by the well behaved audio circle.
AVSF has some of the best members of our audio/video community, with professionals teaching us for free.
I'm proud to be part of the elite.

The rest is up to the sun, next Monday. ...Or we can buy some good books.
------

In the interim I'd be looking @ new sun glasses, and a pair of used Ultima Salon2 on eBay.

 

[DonH56]

I sooo wanted to attend but was out of town. I bought mine from John, btw. Great guy and much more practical than many dealers around, no B.S. I still hope to visit him and compare for myself while he has both, but I'm happy with what I have and am fighting some sort of cold/virus thingie so it will be a bit.

The things that surprised me most are how well they image compared to my Magnepans, how well they create a sense of space, and how well the sound moves among drivers without strange little "glitches". One of the things I started noticing in the past few years as I started contemplating replacements for my Maggies is how voices and vocal-range instruments would not stay focused or fixed in place over frequency with many multi-driver speakers. The image or focal point of the sound would shift as the frequency changed and it shifted among drivers. The Revels do not have that problem best I can tell, or at least much less than some other speakers.

I also picked up the Voice2 center as I have found timbre-matching the center is important, and since I was getting a great deal picked up four Revel F206's that are serving as surround and rear speakers. I can't say I have a lot of time on the system yet, but it sounds good to me, and when my wife and sons were around to listen they liked the new system. My son, a drummer (among other things), thought drums and cymbals in particular were reproduced as best he had heard by the Salon2's. And the Maggies were no slouches...

 

[jtwrace]

I do. As does Don.

Have not used them with 3-D movie but even in stereo configuration, I am most impressed by the sound they generate for movies.

Gosh, why the hate on the M2's. I love mine!

 

[amirm]

Gosh, why the hate on the M2's. I love mine!

Loving one child doesn't mean you hate the other.