Reliability and build quality of Chinese Vs. Western Amps and DACs? Can you reliably get 15+ years out of a Topping Stack? Or SMSL? Singxer?

[MCH]

I think that the presumed lifespan of the owner has to enter this equation. It seems presumptuous to think that one will be alive in 20 years. As objectivists, a check of the actuarial tables of how long we statistically have left, against the price difference between the pieces of gear being considered, seems prudent. We can do the math and come up with a few enlightening cost vs benefit data points. Otherwise... who cares if we've saved $500 if we're dead and our gear lives on?

Well, your gear doesn't need to go to the grave with you either (well, except for some cases maybe).
Quality sought after products (the RME example before checks the box) will most likely find new owners if you are gone in 10 years time. All the electronic crap I and some others tend to accumulate won't be worth the shipping cost

 

[Ste_S]

I am fully expecting to get at least 10, 15+ years out of my stack, because frankly, anything less is absolutely unacceptable, and I would ideally like to get 20+ years, or until the capacitors reach their chemical end.

Nope. We don't know what digital audio will look like in 5,10,15 years time. Will there be a new standard for spatial audio? Will there be a new connector standard? Will wireless standards improve so that we get spatial lossless on wireless headphones, making wired obsolete, nuking the whole dac/headphone amp market segment?

Buying expensive tech always seem like a good way to waste money, as it will be obsoleted long before it fails. I'd just go and buy something cheap from the usual suspects - most of them sound great, so you're not loosing anything in audio quality.

 

[Sokel]

Problem with some cheap gear is not about themselves.
Is about what they can cause up and down the chain.

If their fault stay on them fine,but it's not fine at all if they burn speakers,headphones and deaf our ears,specially the later.

 

[Ste_S]

Problem with some cheap gear is not about themselves.
Is about what they can cause up and down the chain.

If their fault stay on them fine,but it's not fine at all if they burn speakers,headphones and deaf our ears,specially the later.

Good job there's no reports of any of that from Topping, SMSL, Fiio etc etc then.

 

[Sokel]

Good job there's no reports of any of that from Topping, SMSL, Fiio etc etc then.

You probably don't read the threads about it.
Multiple failures,not one,with amps burning headphones,a couple with DACs going nuts at 0db,etc.

Problem with these reports are that people hesitate to publish them as the reselling value of their gear will go to zero afterwards.

 

[wwenze]

I dunno about the specific models you're mentioning, but my Yulong T-Amp is over 15 years old and is pretty much 24/7

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Well, your gear doesn't need to go to the grave with you either (well, except for some cases maybe).
Quality sought after products (the RME example before checks the box) will most likely find new owners if you are gone in 10 years time. All the electronic crap I and some others tend to accumulate won't be worth the shipping cost

Hold on! My monobloks would certainly be buried at my head and feet!
(Except, I am getting cremated!)

 

[Sokel]

I dunno about the specific models you're mentioning, but my Zhaolu T-Amp is over 15 years old and is pretty much 24/7

...and may them be for another 15!
That's why I said some and not all.

And even then,cheap or expensive,western or eastern,I would certainly rely on the company to compensate me for their (proven) fault for all damages.
Not all of them would,and a bad sign is asking for shipping fees for repairing well into warranty for example.
One can tell by it.

 

[Ste_S]

You probably don't read the threads about it.
Multiple failures,not one,with amps burning headphones,a couple with DACs going nuts at 0db,etc.

Problem with these reports are that people hesitate to publish them as the reselling value of their gear will go to zero afterwards.

Which company and/or which model are you referring to; is there a specific product?

Every company has QA issues, but it takes multiple reports of issues to turn into a problem with company or product. As with anything, I would always suggest buying from sellers that have a good returns policy. Luckily, Amazon sells most of the products by the popular Chinese Hi-Fi brands.

 

[Roland68]

Hello everyone,

I'm trying to find a solid-state DAC and Amp stack for around $900 USD, with plans to add a power amp in the future (so the headphone amp needs to double as a preamp with a switch for the preamp outputs).

I've identified a few good companies: Schiit, RME, Topping, SMSL, Singxer, etc.

I am very interested in buying an E70 / L70 stack from Topping, but their build quality and reliability seem to be the worst of all brands, and I've heard similar complaints from all of the chinese-production brands. There are MANY threads on MANY different forums and websites talking about chinese-brand audio equipment being DOA, or dying within only a few months or a year.

Now, I want to state that I am not one of those racist guys who just assumes that everything from China is garbage "Because China". I know Chinese manufacturing well, from other aspects of my life, and I know they can absolutely put out some of the best-made stuff in the world, when their factories are contracted to do so.

What I don't know is where domestic brands like Topping, SMSL, Singxer, etc. fall on this spectrum of quality. Are they TRYING to put out reliable products, with 15+ year lifespans, or are they only trying to put out HIGH PERFORMANCE products?

I am fully expecting to get at least 10, 15+ years out of my stack, because frankly, anything less is absolutely unacceptable, and I would ideally like to get 20+ years, or until the capacitors reach their chemical end.

Do you all think it's reasonable to expect this kind of lifespan from Topping, SMSL, Singxer, etc? If you had to recommend a few $900 DAC/Amp stacks prioritizing reliability, which brands would you recommend? Do you think Schiit is more reliable than these chinese brands?

Thank you!

You have forgotten one of the most important companies in terms of quality, durability and performance. Lake People / Violectric have been delivering long-lasting pro audio and home audio equipment for more than 35 years.
I have had many devices in my hand that have been in daily use for 20-30 years. These devices are easily repairable.
Even if you buy used devices that are 5, 10 or 15 years old, they will still have a long life.

 

[Quinton595]

JDS labs Headphone amp/pre and separate JDS DAC?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the JDS atom line doesn't have power amplifiers, so I wouldn't be able to find anything that matches visually... but that's a fairly minor issue, I realize.

SMSL 500 mk II. Half your budget. If it lasts 7.5 years, shouldn't that be good enough? One box to do it all again. More attractive plus XLR out as an option.

SMSL M500 MKII Review (DAC & HP Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the SMSL M500 MKII DAC and Headphone Amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $440. I really like the look of the new SMSL UI. It is more modern and nicer to look at. I am surprised though that they still show the input data type in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Hahah that's a cute little box.

And yeah, in theory, from a purely economic basis, your concept of "half the budget for half the lifespan is the same thing" works out, but there's other considerations. I don't want to financially support brands that pump out unreliable electronics, I don't want to contribute to the mounting global E-waste problem, etc. I'd much rather pay double for double the lifespan, if such a product exists.

i think most of us have been around long enough and spent enough to see thru a lot of this

eg. i bought a top of the line marantz made in japan amp that was amazingly well built

like copper sheet chassis, copper screws, they pulled out all the stops

thing broke down twice, local guys couldnt work on it so i had to get the stereotypical elderly asian e.eng who didnt speak much english to fix it... twice

but i'm broken enough in the head to still love marantz

i've also bought chinese class a/b gear that has been faultess... going onto year 5 now... in fact its older than my last kid

but i still wouldnt buy topping

i feel that some of the more not well known chinese companies do A/B quite well but some companies are still screwing up digital amps and dacs which kind of blows my mind

trad class a/b with EL or toroidals used the be the big relibailtiy worries but doesnt seem to be with these new companies screwing up digital stuff

Haha, see, your comment is exactly what I'm getting at. Lots of people feel the same way, "Oh, Chi-Fi isn't as bad as people make it out to be, oh you don't have to worry that much.............. but still, don't buy Topping."

There's always that "but still" with topping. I'm wondering where that's coming from, and if it's statistically valid, or if it's just a remnant of bad quality-control on some of their older lines that has forever tainted public perception.

It's funny that you say toroidals used to be a reliability concern. Nowadays, I only see toroidals on amps that are supposedly better-built than the rest.

Of the various brands I listed: Topping, Singxer, SMSL, RME, Schiit, which do you think I should avoid, and which do you think would be more than fine, with a 10+ year lifespan?

Conspiracy theory #3278: in 13 years, Schiit buys Topping, SMSL, Singxer, etc.
Conspiracy theory #5723: in 14 years, China invades and annexes “the West”.

So, the answer to your question is an absolute ‘yes’…???

Reliability/durability is mostly defined as a function of usage (hours), number of cycles, and things like power spikes, ambient temperature—none of these you define—not ‘years’. What if you leave it in its box unused for 14 years?

I apologize if it sounds aggressive but, are you really expecting an objective answer here?

You forgot Conspiracy theory #4779, in 13.5 years, Schiit, JDS, RME, and all other audio firms are purchased by Apple, and are forced to only sell Apple Dongles.

And of course what you say is true, but in the same way that there are many confounding variables, there are many potential datapoints out there in the world -- many users of these products. The sheer number of them helps to offset the number of factors. "It all evens out in the wash", as they say.

Sure, one user might use their stuff for 8 hours a day while another uses it for only one hour, but multiplied across 10,000 users, you get a pretty decent average, and can start to form fairly reliable conclusions, if there are in fact any major differences in reliability between the brands.

51 years with Mcintosh now. I did manage to blow up an MC275 with a direct cable drop onto an NC500oem MB by Nord. The Nord was fine the Mac blew
a KT88 GL, and a transformer. I have well over 50 pieces of Mac Gear and owned over 125 through the years. I play with other brands but Krell and Mac in
my home have 30+ year old DACs. Actually one of my favorite preamps is an old HT51 Krell. The remote was CnCed from a solid aluminum billet that still
works perfect. It's hands down the best remote I've EVER used. It makes all thing Mac/remote seem cheep.

The issue I have was somewhat mitigated by the "SUB" on the remote it had a volume control in 2 channel LS mode. No tone controls BUT a wonderfully
transparent product considering. How old is that Krell DAC? Mac is the same as far as being transparent, just leave the tone controls alone. The newer Mac
doesn't have the old Mac house flavor like say a C3X. From a C2200-2700 transparent as can be. All the SS from C45 up are the same until you hit the
50 series and of course they are transparent.

C100-1100. MX120-170 VERY transparent. Their DACs are as good as any out there, you will never be able to tell the difference in a AB or ABX, BUT 50 years
from now there is a good chance they will be working. I might have a doubt or two on the MX series (AVP) complex piles for sure.

The question is 15 years good enough and who gets your stuff when you kick the bucket? Do you want to leave something you have to throw away
or sell for a nice chunk of change to someone if they don't like your gear?

I KNOW the reputation and the track record of Mcintosh valve and SS personally. Cary valve gear isn't any slouch either. I wouldn't trade my SLP-05/V12Rs
for anything. They been boiling along for 15+ years.

Oh, I'm listening to an MX110z and a MC225 right now. The MC225 lost ONE 12AX7 Tellie 8 -10 years ago. Neither have ever been touched except with
wax and oil. Pins and pockets are serviced every 5 years or so. 60 years old! Toot Toot! I know I can, I know I can.. lol

Happy hunting

Regards

Yeah, see, I know that at the end of the day, brands like McIntosh and Valve are pretty much the answer to my question -- they are the industry standards, the professional solution. Unfortunately, they are MILES outside of my budget, and will forever be, even when looking at the used market.

See how it goes...for most of us, these kind of items are not a fortune. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

If it worries you...spend more and buy items you can send into a designated service center for repairs.

I'm now at the point where a lot of my equipment will outlast me, so my worries of this nature have, uh, diminished...

Yeah, for me, these items are definitely expensive. Definitely something I don't want to be buying more than once, but at the same time, something I'm happy to spend the money on if I'm getting something that will last a reasonable lifespan.

Your point on service centers is important, though, and that's why I'm leaning towards Schiit, as they're the only brand in my price range that I know of that is US based, and which I could ostensibly ship my products to for repair (I'm in Canada). However, I don't know where Schiit falls in terms of reliability and build quality in the first place.

Yes everything is in some way made in china anyway .
Even if it says made in us or germany on the tin . Boards may be done in Chinese factories or if not that components may very well be.

So a good brand has built up a service organisation and local reps you can contact when it breaks ( not if ) some of the new Chinese brands has not reached that stage in maturity yet , so your asked to ship it back to china…

If in Europe you can buy from a local reseller like audiophonics so that they can be the middleman if warranty problems arise ?

Another good point, like Joe Smith's comment.

I live in Canada, and shipping to China is very expensive. Like, to the point where it's about half the cost of the amp itself.

Per my reply to Joe Smith, above, this is why I'm leaning towards Schiit, as they are US based, and I could ostensibly ship my stuff to them for repair if needed. However, I don't know where Schiit falls in terms of reliability and build quality in the first place. There's also the issue that schiit's products are often described as much warmer, much less detailed, and with a much smaller soundspace than some of the Chi-Fi products, but I don't know if I'll hear those differences...

The way I see it it's not where it's made but under what standards.
I have seen VERY high quality PCBs from eastern countries but there was something like 5 times the price of normal ones.
It's what each company asks for really.

Western certifications is a nice hint though,specially when it comes to safety.

Yet another good point, thank you. I'm not familiar with any of the certifications in the audio electronics space, though. Do you, by chance, know of whether any of the brands I've listed are particularly well-known for adhering to strict certifications? Schiit, Topping, Singxer, SMSL, RME, etc.?

I think that the presumed lifespan of the owner has to enter this equation. It seems presumptuous to think that one will be alive in 20 years. As objectivists, a check of the actuarial tables of how long we statistically have left, against the price difference between the pieces of gear being considered, seems prudent. We can do the math and come up with a few enlightening cost vs benefit data points. Otherwise... who cares if we've saved $500 if we're dead and our gear lives on?

Can I obtain a better return-on-investment if I just kill myself before my electronics die?

But no, for real, I'm only 29, and I take good care of all the electronics and tools in my life, and have many that are 15+ years old and still in regular use. I've also seen the absolutely ridiculous decline in quality in all aspects of consumer goods, as I have several pieces of antique woodworking equipment that I have restored, because they VASTLY exceed the quality of anything manufactured today for less than $20,000. This has coloured my outlook on all things, and I am very staunchly against fast-fashion-electronics, and the disposability-mindset we manufacture under these days. There is absolutely no justification for why a solid-state electronic shouldn't last as long as its electrolytic capacitors do. Any lifespan shorter than that IS an engineering and manufacturing failure, without question.

 

[JSmith]

Chi-Fi

Please and thanks in advance;

Let's Avoid the Term Chi-Fi

I often see the use of the term "Chi Fi" to describe audio products from China. I see the intention and don't think anyone is trying to be racist and what have you. Still, I like us to show the highest respect to products from around the world. As avid readers of this forum know...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

 

[Mnyb]

Look at the measurements here on ASR on shiit products. Some are actually really nice and would not have issues with sound quality. Some older or odd products of thier does not perform particularly good .

So with shiit it’s about exactly what you planning to buy and if you can find third party measurements for reassurance here at ASR or somewhere else . Then they are competitive.

In general when products perform good enough your are very unlikely to hear any difference at all between them .
So it’s about the wanted features and other qualities .

I’m like the RME-ADI2 for its feature set it’s has everything really and there must be a local Canadian sales rep for these ?

 

[Quinton595]

Please and thanks in advance;

Let's Avoid the Term Chi-Fi

I often see the use of the term "Chi Fi" to describe audio products from China. I see the intention and don't think anyone is trying to be racist and what have you. Still, I like us to show the highest respect to products from around the world. As avid readers of this forum know...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

Noted, thank you for linking that.

Look at the measurements here on ASR on shiit products. Some are actually really nice and would not have issues with sound quality. Some older or odd products of thier does not perform particularly good .

So with shiit it’s about exactly what you planning to buy and if you can find third party measurements for reassurance here at ASR or somewhere else . Then they are competitive.

In general when products perform good enough your are very unlikely to hear any difference at all between them .
So it’s about the wanted features and other qualities .

I’m like the RME-ADI2 for its feature set it’s has everything really and there must be a local Canadian sales rep for these ?

Yeah, that's what I've noticed too. Some products like the various magni models and the Midgard amp measure fantastically however, because of my various needs (power amp stackability, preamp switch, etc.), I would basically HAVE to buy the Modius DAC (either the AKM or the ES9028), and the Jotunheim 2 amp.

It's the jotunheim that concerns me. It doesn't measure great, but it still measures well enough that I won't hear any distortion. However, the way it's described subjectively is concerning. People always describe it as warm, but lacking detail, lacking soundstage, lacking clarity, compared to some of the modern Chinese brands.

 

[Blumlein 88]

What if a product with double the life and double the expense uses double the resources up front? You haven't helped anything. Seven and a half years later more efficient processing may exist and the shorter lifespan product is the less wasteful product.

 

[Quinton595]

What if a product with double the life and double the expense uses double the resources up front? You haven't helped anything. Seven and a half years later more efficient processing may exist and the shorter lifespan product is the less wasteful product.

Um... That doesn't bear out. For several reasons. That's just.... That's not how any of this works. Purchasing two unreliable amps in 15 years uses more resources than purchasing one of better quality. That is utterly inarguable. The increase in quality does not require doubling the resources used. It doesn't even require adding 20%. It comes down to smart circuit design and quality manufacturing, ensuring connections are tight, heatsinks are properly bonded, cases are adequately vented, etc.

This is all an ancillary point, though. This thread was created to try and find well-built audio gear, not to argue on the economics and environmental impact of different shades of bad.

I won't be expanding on this particular line of discussion.

 

[Roland68]

Um... That doesn't bear out. For several reasons. That's just.... That's not how any of this works. Purchasing two unreliable amps in 15 years uses more resources than purchasing one of better quality. That is utterly inarguable. The increase in quality does not require doubling the resources used. It doesn't even require adding 20%. It comes down to smart circuit design and quality manufacturing, ensuring connections are tight, heatsinks are properly bonded, cases are adequately vented, etc.

This is all an ancillary point, though. This thread was created to try and find well-built audio gear, not to argue on the economics and environmental impact of different shades of bad.

I won't be expanding on this particular line of discussion.

You couldn't be more wrong in your assumption.
The people who work on such a project are not part of the resources? Development time costs nothing? Time for duration/long-term tests doesn’t cost anything? The months later the product comes onto the market cost nothing? Or do you work for free?
Something like this doesn't cost 20% more, but x times the original development price.
And the second point is that every €/$ increases at least three to four times by the end customer.

You get what you pay for. If you are not willing to pay the price for service, support, development know-how and time, complex tests, long-term tests and aging tests, better boards and components, etc. and save these costs, you will get devices that are 50-80% cheaper.
And that's exactly what you need to know if you want to buy a long-lasting and reliable device.
And that doesn't mean that the cheap devices can't last a long time, but the probability is significantly lower.

And that is exactly the reason why devices such as RME, Violectric, Lake People, etc. are so much more expensive.
But these devices still live for 20-30 years.

 

[Sokel]

Yet another good point, thank you. I'm not familiar with any of the certifications in the audio electronics space, though. Do you, by chance, know of whether any of the brands I've listed are particularly well-known for adhering to strict certifications? Schiit, Topping, Singxer, SMSL, RME, etc.?

The ones made (or company resides and sells) in western countries are obliged to follow them,so I guess RME,Sciit,etc are following them.
Same goes with the devices officially sold by western companies and shops as they have to follow the rules.

The ones sold by Aliex and the likes only needs searching,at lest the ones using mains power.

Here's an example of one of the amps I'm using,I don't know If all of them are obligatory though.



And I think they are made in Malaysia.

 

[Leeken]

Even Bryston will only give you 5 years on digital products,20 years is only on analog.RME is a 6 year warranty,probably as good as it gets on a digital product,I’d expect it to remain repairable by them for many years longer IF parts are available.
With anything digital based that’s a bloody massive if.

 

[Ste_S]

But no, for real, I'm only 29, and I take good care of all the electronics and tools in my life, and have many that are 15+ years old and still in regular use. I've also seen the absolutely ridiculous decline in quality in all aspects of consumer goods, as I have several pieces of antique woodworking equipment that I have restored, because they VASTLY exceed the quality of anything manufactured today for less than $20,000. This has coloured my outlook on all things, and I am very staunchly against fast-fashion-electronics, and the disposability-mindset we manufacture under these days. There is absolutely no justification for why a solid-state electronic shouldn't last as long as its electrolytic capacitors do. Any lifespan shorter than that IS an engineering and manufacturing failure, without question.

For tech that's still being developled, it is disposable, as they're mostly obsoleted way before any EOL caused by their materials or build. Known tech - analogue amps, wired headphones, turntables, passive speakers (or your woodworking tools example) etc your fine. I wouldn't invest into things like expensive DACs or wireless headphones though, as they'll be obsoleted before their materials fail; and if they do fail, good luck getting the parts as the industry will have moved on.