Car Audio "35000"W of pure stupidity

[AmpliDude]

Good evening gentlemen (and ladies if any present)
Unsure whereabouts to introduce myself, and how not to make myself look like a total idiot, so starting here...
(Feel free to move this post about or even trash it, if found to be inappropriate)

A tad shy guy with passion for power electronics and crap like this.

Some time ago, few people from certain company didn't want to play the ball with me and eventually decided to block me on FB, just because my question were to technical and clearly were exposing the nonsense branded by this particular organisation.
So in revenge I've conceived the below video, trying to highlight the main points of my concerns... a bit chaotic it might seem, but I've never said that I'm perfect

Hope You enjoy it, although it is a bit lengthy in my opinion.

1.21 JiggaWatts

Regards
Mark

 

[Philbo King]

A highly biased reaction:
High power car audio has a long tradition of idiots trying desperately to impress other idiots.

It's a great way for 16 year old boys to spend their cash on landfill-fodder electronics rather than recreational drugs.

 

[kemmler3D]

Welcome to ASR! I see that you've run squarely into the difference between real numbers and marketing wattage, which (in the lower budget tiers of audio gear) are typically just the biggest lie they think they can get away with. In this case they were unlucky enough to run into someone who knows their stuff.

I think you will like it here more than wherever you found that "35Kw" item.

The one thing I noticed in your video was a possible negative attitude toward Chinese-made goods. Depending on who you ask around ASR, the jury is still out on reliability, but they've proven themselves in terms of performance enough times that there's no longer any reason to doubt a manufacturer just because they hail from that country.

So I would say the amp in your video is certainly shite but not because of where it came from. I used to source audio electronics (custom and otherwise) from China, and the bottom line is they will build exactly what you specify - no more and no less. If that amp is trash it's because the brand asked for trash.

 

[Philbo King]

A less biased reaction:
A 35kW amp system, assuming 100% efficiency (not attainable in this universe), would require about 2920 Amperes from the battery. A high-end car battery can provide 700 Amperes for a (very) short time. So it would need 5 car batteries in parallel, along with an alternator capable of operating at 50 horsepower, using copper cable 1 inch in diameter.

Back to slightly more bias:
I suspect they might be using made-up power ratings, such as peak instantaneous imaginary unicorn fairydust watts...

So, I applaud you for trying to debunk their claims. Good work!

 

[DVDdoug]

Most manufacturer's power ratings are exaggerated, if not outright dishonest.

I have car amplifier rated at 5000W in my van. I don't believe it and my speakers (and ears) couldn't handle that much power. I haven't measured it (and I don't have a 5000W load) but I'd be surprised if it can put-out 1000W (which would also be too much for my speakers). I have a pair of 12-inch subwoofers and I don't remember their rating.

But it is "adequate".

So it would need 5 car batteries in parallel,

Some of the guys involved with dB Drag Racing use multiple batteries and super-capacitors. I don't know how many true-watts they have, and they probably don't know either. But the SPL levels are properly measured.

 

[Philbo King]

Most manufacturer's power ratings are exaggerated, if not outright dishonest.

I have car amplifier rated at 5000W in my van. I don't believe it and my speakers (and ears) couldn't handle that much power. I haven't measured it (and I don't have a 5000W load) but I'd be surprised if it can put-out 1000W (which would also be too much for my speakers). I have a pair of 12-inch subwoofers and I don't remember their rating.

But it is "adequate".


Some of the guys involved with dB Drag Racing use multiple batteries and super-capacitors. I don't know how many true-watts they have, and they probably don't know either. But the SPL levels are properly measured.

Are there sound pressure meters that go up to 140-150 dB? I've heard of mics that can do that (according to specs)...

 

[Keith_W]

Some of the guys involved with dB Drag Racing use multiple batteries and super-capacitors. I don't know how many true-watts they have, and they probably don't know either. But the SPL levels are properly measured.

dB drag racing has always seemed like a stupid and pointless pursuit to me. People go to extreme lengths to win. I have seen car audio competitions where they enlist mates to climb on the car and lie on the roof to contain more sound inside the car. I was told that this is good for a few dB of extra loudness.

 

[deebeez]

Are there sound pressure meters that go up to 140-150 dB? I've heard of mics that can do that (according to specs)...

And for people wanting to see what goes into something like this ( Not easy and not cheap)

 

[Philbo King]

Wow... An exceptionally creative way to waste money

 

[Chrispy]

Wow... An exceptionally creative way to waste money

But if you want to kill your hearing quickly....

 

[DVDdoug]

Yeah, it's a silly hobby, but safer than actual drag racing. During the actual competition, nobody is allowed inside the car.

And from what I've read, they also have sound quality categories.

 

[AmpliDude]

So I would say the amp in your video is certainly shite but not because of where it came from. I used to source audio electronics (custom and otherwise) from China, and the bottom line is they will build exactly what you specify - no more and no less. If that amp is trash it's because the brand asked for trash.

I apologize for being misunderstood. I couldn't agree more. China as You said will do exactly what You ask them to do.
Now looking at it from Your point of view, one could assume that this was my underlying message. I'll try to get better in conveying my thoughts next time

 

[AmpliDude]

Are there sound pressure meters that go up to 140-150 dB? I've heard of mics that can do that (according to specs)...

GRAS Acoustics k-LICK Me

But the biggest lie on the planet in Car Audio history is the "microphone" that they use globally to determine who's louder...
Term-Lab / Term-PRO shite, branded by non other then WHE, Wayne Harris EnterShite

"Microphone" built on single MPXM2010GS ($8 when buying in bulk 300pcs+ at Mouser) differential pressure sensor, with one side closed by means of highly sophisticated epoxy from home depot and the other side exposed to the "atmosphere" ie. car / system under measurement.

This reply can and probably will quickly turn into a rant, but I'll try my best not to:

Every measuring device, especially one that is de-facto an "industry" standard must get calibrated and so on and on
Fuel pump at gas station gets calibrated and temperature compensated
Weight scale in supermarket gets calibrated
All around the world any kind of "reference" meter gets calibrated

WHE Term-Shite DOES NOT need to be calibrated, is NOT temperature compensated, DOES NOT account for the altitude and ambient pressure
But it DOES give You results of the highest resolution and is "accurate" to the second decimal point at SPLs of 180dB+
...I mean What the actual FUNK ?!
And the entire world of car audio enthusiasts went for it
Maybe one day I'll bite this topic and shake down this "industry"
I'd guess that few people would have all the rights not to like me for that

 

[AmpliDude]

dB drag racing has always seemed like a stupid and pointless pursuit to me. People go to extreme lengths to win. I have seen car audio competitions where they enlist mates to climb on the car and lie on the roof to contain more sound inside the car. I was told that this is good for a few dB of extra loudness.

Very common practice and it does help if You installed shit-tone of equipment but haven't spent a penny on the actual vehicle reinforcement (arse-to-elbow approach)

 

[voodooless]

It's PMPO all over again

But to be fair, with real music and a crest factor of about 15, the real average power draw will be around 30x less, so you'd need just over 1 KW on average.

 

[AmpliDude]

It's PMPO all over again

But to be fair, with real music and a crest factor of about 15, the real average power draw will be around 30x less, so you'd need just over 1 KW on average.

100% correct.
Although this particular product in question is a "competition" grade amplifier and almost all "re-bassed" songs used during the demos are playing continuous-alike bass notes, therefore the crest factor is close to 1.

I wouldn't have problem with this crap-tacular amplifier if they rated it inline with the so-often-dismissed laws of physics.

 

[voodooless]

almost all "re-bassed" songs used during the demos are playing continuous-alike bass notes, therefore the crest factor is close to 1.

Great, that means you don't need a lot of power (relatively). You can optimize a sub to be massively effective at only those frequencies Something like an n-th order bandpass should do this very well.

 

[egellings]

A less biased reaction:
A 35kW amp system, assuming 100% efficiency (not attainable in this universe), would require about 2920 Amperes from the battery. A high-end car battery can provide 700 Amperes for a (very) short time. So it would need 5 car batteries in parallel, along with an alternator capable of operating at 50 horsepower, using copper cable 1 inch in diameter.

Back to slightly more bias:
I suspect they might be using made-up power ratings, such as peak instantaneous imaginary unicorn fairydust watts...

So, I applaud you for trying to debunk their claims. Good work!

Floobydust watts! Thing is, if the speakers could actually output a significant fraction of that power in the small volume of a car, I suspect that serious physical injury could occur to anyone sitting in there, beyond just blown-out eardrums.

 

[AdamG]

Good evening gentlemen (and ladies if any present)
Unsure whereabouts to introduce myself, and how not to make myself look like a total idiot, so starting here...
(Feel free to move this post about or even trash it, if found to be inappropriate)

A tad shy guy with passion for power electronics and crap like this.

Some time ago, few people from certain company didn't want to play the ball with me and eventually decided to block me on FB, just because my question were to technical and clearly were exposing the nonsense branded by this particular organisation.
So in revenge I've conceived the below video, trying to highlight the main points of my concerns... a bit chaotic it might seem, but I've never said that I'm perfect

Hope You enjoy it, although it is a bit lengthy in my opinion.

1.21 JiggaWatts

Regards
Mark

Welcome Aboard @AmpliDude. Great entrance Sir. This is our Host (Amir’s) bread and butter business model. He has pretty much dedicated his life to debunking false and misleading Audio Equipment Advertising. We operate on the charity of our members and have zero Commercial Overlords here. Your Video and expertise will fit in quite nicely with our Community.

We don’t have a very large Car Audio following. So maybe you can help us expand our knowledge of such things.

 

[kemmler3D]

I apologize for being misunderstood. I couldn't agree more. China as You said will do exactly what You ask them to do.
Now looking at it from Your point of view, one could assume that this was my underlying message. I'll try to get better in conveying my thoughts next time

It used to be very common (and probably not totally unjustified) to say bad things about the quality of Chinese manufacturing. These days, you can't be sure who is up to date and who still uses the old stereotypes, sounds like we are on the same page.

Funny enough, 50+ years ago, Japanese manufacturing was regarded in the same way we might have looked at Chinese stuff in the 80s-00s. Shoddy, cheap, unreliable. Now it's generally seen as higher end stuff. I wonder if we'll be paying an actual premium for Chinese stuff in the future, like we do for stuff from Japan now?