Why do you think a few members have an 'alcoholic anonymous' vibe towards the audiophile community? It seems a harmless hobby as far as things go?

[Victor Martell]

Looking cool is all the justification one needs if they have the money. There’s no deception there.

Who uses a Ferrari for a daily driver, even in Dubai?

Rick “it’s the lying” Denney

I think I brought up sport cars as an analogy - I live in L.A. and I see it daily. I am a tech worker and when I go up north to do things I also see it daily. In L.A. is the 405, up north in San Fran it's the 101 - equally stuck in a (Ferrari|McLaren|Lotus|Alpha Romeo) at 10-20 MPH, depending on the time of day, of course. And of course, still legally limited to 65, as per a previous comment.

Hence, as impractical as a $150,000 turntable - the turntable, is of course. acceptable, the sports car is ridiculous, IMHO, of course. If you like your Ferrari doing 10, YO DO YOU! ( and you are 100% right, how/what you feel is the only justification you need, if you can afford it)

 

[Galliardist]

I have a boat, am a practicing audiophile with more than 1000 albums, undermined amount of CD's and a few racks of equipment not being used. Oh and a motorcycle. Would seem I have some issues.

Or a very good source of income that allows you to afford all of that (and if you're really lucky, a few minutes a week free to share between them).

 

[TimF]

A little something about AA meetings. Members likely don't go to meetings to stop drinking since many or most of them have demonstrated some success with that. They quit to survive and it is that basic. Believe me. But that doesn't much improve their lives. They need something else. Rather, they attend meetings to develop social skills they may have not developed due to a lot of reasons. It may take a few years for an AA member to learn to be among a group of others without being reactive, or without being in shame, or without being resentful or prone to hysterics. They go to meetings to practice and continue practicing a positive way to be among people. They slowly learn to be calm and attentive and undefensive in a group. They learn to listen, they learn to appreciate other persons. Does that have anything to do with audiophiles? If equipment for its own sake and especially better and better and better equipment, and also equipment with more status obsesses us, or compels us such that we cannot be satisfied or won't be satisfied then we have lost sight of a realistic or rational goal. What is the moon and what is the finger pointing at the moon. It may be darn near impossible to determine what is really going on with us motivationally. We may resist rationality. When your audio set up is displayed like an altar in a dedicated room and the equipment is the equivalent of relics of the saints something is amiss.

 

[Keith_W]

Rolex is such a ubiquitous brand that it's the one watch nuts either love or hate. But here's what industry leaders often say about them--leaders who run companies that make much more expensive watches than Rolex... "How do they make such good watches for so cheap?" It's hard to imagine that statement being made about steel watches now priced into the five figures, but that statement was made back when they were still in the four figures. But still...

Are Rolex good watches? I count only a few movements in their range - a basic time + seconds, time + date, time + date + day, and chronograph. They didn't even make their own chronograph movement until a few years ago. I remember reading an article in "The Horologium" many years ago comparing the finish of a Rolex movement with a Patek. The article concluded that the finish is nowhere close, but then neither is the price. You are getting an appropriately finished movement for the price. It is true that they make their own in-house movements, but a lot of that cost comes from the design of that movement and tooling up. Once you have that, you amortize the cost over thousands of movements. And they have certainly sold thousands.

We could compare Rolex to Zenith, which is similarly priced to Rolex but also make their own movements. Their new DEFY movement which vibrates at 15Hz is pretty incredible, no other watch beats that fast. With Zenith you are actually paying for engineering, not marketing or a luxury tax. And for slightly more than a Rolex, there is Jaeger-LeCoultre where you get a genuine high end movement for reasonable money. JLC also makes high complication movements. There is no such thing as a Rolex tourbillon, perpetual calendar, moonphase, grand sonnerie, alarm ... JLC makes all these things.

So I think that Rolex is overpriced. They can afford to be, because they are in such high demand.

I do have a Rolex, an Oyster Perpetual Date. I bought it years ago, before the price of Rolex went sky high. It is a two tone in gold and steel. It gets more attention than my IWC Portugeiser, which cost the same as the Rolex (in inflation adjusted terms) but is way more subtle despite its larger size. I don't wear my Rolex for that reason, I prefer my Omega as my daily. It is tough, reliable, and most importantly ... it is subtle.

 

[rdenney]

I mostly agree but being overpriced is a function of demand and supply, and Rolex demand keeps going up while Zenith always struggles. It’s a way to control their position and Rolex are masters at that. Don’t underestimate their engineering, though where it really shines is in sustaining their quality model despite producing at least ten times as many watches as Zenith or JLC. I recognize this despite that I’m a serious fan of Zenith and think of them, LeCoultre, and pre-Swatch Longines as the seminal Swiss vertical manufactures, with Zenith being the first of those.

You have to respect that Rolex has remained independent, while Zenith and JLC have both become corporate subsidiaries.

But I sure wish my Zenith had a service network like Rolex has. That is the real Achilles heel of the Swiss watch industry.

I think for next week’s nice weather, I’ll wear my mid-50’s caliber 40t Zenith.

Rick “recognizing also that Swiss corporate boundaries have been far more fluid and interdependent that Americans can usually understand” Denney

 

[antcollinet]

Unless you take it to the race track a Ferrari won't go faster in top speed than a Kia without breaking the law.

It'll get to the speed limit a hell of a lot faster though. And will overtake in 1/3 the distance of any conventional car.

More to the point - all the performance benefits, and legal limitations of use of those are known. No-one is lying and telling people the Ferrari will make them immune from the law.

 

[Victor Martell]

It'll get to the speed limit a hell of a lot faster though. And will overtake in 1/3 the distance of any conventional car.

More to the point - all the performance benefits, and legal limitations of use of those are known. No-one is lying and telling people the Ferrari will make them immune from the law.

While 100% true, given the specs of a sports car, also not extremely useful when right ahead you have the 101/405 intersection. While true, sports cars still only practical in the racetrack.

AND pretty much all of us here don't lie to ourselves; We also know the facts and limitations and that a preference is just a preference. That preference being a $10K DAC, or a turntable and vinyl, or, contrary to MOST (THE REST) of the world, not using just a smartphone for music, like again, most of the world does. Hence the feel that they see this as an addiction.

 

[Galliardist]

You're right. Watch lovers look at watches and think, "I wonder if wearing this would get me laid."

Rick "well, except for me, of course" Denney

The only reason my partner ever took any notice of my wristwatch was to make sure I hadn't lost it yet...

 

[Galliardist]

I mostly agree but being overpriced is a function of demand and supply, and Rolex demand keeps going up while Zenith always struggles. It’s a way to control their position and Rolex are masters at that. Don’t underestimate their engineering, though where it really shines is in sustaining their quality model despite producing at least ten times as many watches as Zenith or JLC. I recognize this despite that I’m a serious fan of Zenith and think of them, LeCoultre, and pre-Swatch Longines as the seminal Swiss vertical manufactures, with Zenith being the first of those.

You have to respect that Rolex has remained independent, while Zenith and JLC have both become corporate subsidiaries.

But I sure wish my Zenith had a service network like Rolex has. That is the real Achilles heel of the Swiss watch industry.

I think for next week’s nice weather, I’ll wear my mid-50’s caliber 40t Zenith.

Rick “recognizing also that Swiss corporate boundaries have been far more fluid and interdependent that Americans can usually understand” Denney

On the subject of service networks, they make much more sense for more expensive watches.

I have one automatic watch, a cheap Tissot. It costs way more to get that serviced/repaired than a similar looking quartz model from the same company - almost the cost of a replacement watch, in fact. I only bought an automatic because I was sick of having quartz watches that just died at the same time as the first battery. Ha! I should have just accepted that and bought cheaper quartz watches as throwaways, I guess, but I should have checked prices first.

For a higher value watch, I guess the price of a service is reasonable, since at least in these parts the service price is no higher, or not that much higher, than a cheaper one. And these days I use my iPhone to check the time, mostly, but that;'s another thread.

 

[Jaxjax]

When your audio set up is displayed like an altar in a dedicated room and the equipment is the equivalent of relics of the saints something is amiss.

This is what's wrong with ASR in general. I can barely get thru any thread without tons of garbage spit out iike this. I can see a day when the ASR forum is down to like 10 people all running mini Genelecs & thinking they have the best systems on the planet with everyone one else who are happy with their gear really aren't because these 10 say it can't possibly sound good...the data says so.....
Joe

 

[Mart68]

This is what's wrong with ASR in general. I can barely get thru any thread without tons of garbage spit out iike this. I can see a day when the ASR forum is down to like 10 people all running mini Genelecs & thinking they have the best systems on the planet with everyone one else who are happy with their gear really aren't because these 10 say it can't possibly sound good...the data says so.....
Joe

oh it's not that bad. Makes me laugh really, if I meet someone who doesn't have their equipment displayed like a shrine I think there's something wrong with them.

It's all just a question of perspective and being secure in our own choices.

I'm here listening to stupid old Motley Crew on stupid old class A with stupid old passive speakers and a digital pre-amp from 1989. I could swap to Genelec anytime but I just don't feel the need.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Yes, you do. Get rid of the motorcycle.

Jim

Hey, what's wrong with the motorcycle!

 

[Leeken]

The second best day of your life is when you sink all your savings annd inheritances of both your parents and children into a high end multi box hifi,which no one in the house could possibly operate even if they wanted to.

The best day of your life is when you eventually manage to sell it all for a 3rd of the price and buy a echo dot and just listen to music again,occasionally sing hum or whistle,or even god forbid dance!

 

[rdenney]

On the subject of service networks, they make much more sense for more expensive watches.

I have one automatic watch, a cheap Tissot. It costs way more to get that serviced/repaired than a similar looking quartz model from the same company - almost the cost of a replacement watch, in fact. I only bought an automatic because I was sick of having quartz watches that just died at the same time as the first battery. Ha! I should have just accepted that and bought cheaper quartz watches as throwaways, I guess, but I should have checked prices first.

For a higher value watch, I guess the price of a service is reasonable, since at least in these parts the service price is no higher, or not that much higher, than a cheaper one. And these days I use my iPhone to check the time, mostly, but that;'s another thread.

Mechanical watches predate the replacement society. People bought durable possessions and maintained them. I’m holding on to that attribute of the society of my youth more than any other, perhaps.

Rick “old man shakes fist at clouds” Denney

 

[rdenney]

This is what's wrong with ASR in general. I can barely get thru any thread without tons of garbage spit out iike this. I can see a day when the ASR forum is down to like 10 people all running mini Genelecs & thinking they have the best systems on the planet with everyone one else who are happy with their gear really aren't because these 10 say it can't possibly sound good...the data says so.....
Joe

What forum are you reading?

Rick “not the ASR I see” Denney

 

[Deleted member 69358]

The few "audiophiles" I have met online tend to be unlikeable arrogant people who will crap on anything that their delicate ears think is uncouth.

Of those I have discovered 3 types:

1. The money spender. Doesn't matter if they turn the volume up too much that is will knock the siding off their trailer, anything under $10k is garbage.
2. The watt counters. Err, no you are not running a 100,000 wpc system in a 70 year old 15 amp aluminum wired home with 100 amp feed.
3. Denon owners. So sick of these people on slick deals. If the Onkyo TX-RZ50 went on sale for $99, they would barrage the thread with a 30% off on Denon and prattle endlessly about how the AVR-S670H is totally better without specifying any actually reason to believe so.

I suspect they either regret spending their retirement money on something they couldn't afford, they burn their hour down trying to draw 100amps continuously down a 15 amp circuit, or they joined the Denon delusion and have no friends.

Anyway that is what I found online, I have no audiophile friends in real life.

 

[MattHooper]

Hey, what's wrong with the motorcycle!

Don’t get me started!

 

[egellings]

Ha! I dared ask a watch enthusiast a question about watches

(Reminds me of when watches come up among my watch enthusiast friends...I'll get the full story to be sure).

I do appreciate the detail and the insight in to the watch enthusiast world. All the distinctions you laid out are interesting.



I have the same perspective on the watch hobby as my wife does on my audio hobby: all the enthusiasm and details still strike me as a bit inscrutable as I don't share them. I've never liked wearing watches, and for most of my life until very recently if I've worn a watch it's the cheapest, thinnest black digital watch I could buy. The less visible and intrusive on my wrist the better. Currently I'm wearing an Apple Watch, but only because it was necessary for a current medical treatment. Apple did a pretty good job of making a comfortable watch. I wouldn't wear it if I didn't have to though. (And analogously, my wife has no interest in my audio gear. I can get her to sit and listen maybe once every decade or so).

Is there any overlap at all in watch enthusiasm between mechanical and digital watch enthusiasts? Are there many mechanical watch enthusiasts who care about smart watches like Apple?

With cell phone screens becoming so ubiquitous, the watch becomes more ornament than necessity.

 

[krabapple]

I never had much of an 'audiophile' period. I started as a teen from a a pair of EPI 100s (recommended as a budget pick) and then a Bose 901 phase in the late 1970s. I thought Bose was pretty fancy stuff, and in some ways, it was -- but was naturally inclined to science and measured performance and how this thing called 'psychoacoustics' was being leveraged in the hobby. My next speakers were NHTs, when Ken Kantor was running the place. Meanwhile I was training academically in science. I was reading Stereo Review and Audio Critic and $ensible $ound and laughing at the utter nonsense in TAS and Stereophile. I signed on as a member of hydrogenaudio in 2003; for many years it was the only pro-science, anti-subjectivist forum on the Internet. That's long enough ago to remember when Amir was a newbie there, and his epic pissing matches with Arny Kruger.

So there's no particular AA vibe in my ridicule of the 'audiophile' community; I never felt 'had' by it. I never lusted after tube amps or monoblocs or fancy cables. I mainly wished I could afford better speakers, a quiet room, and wished LPs sounded better (digital saved the day on that one). I've found the audio hobby riven with patently ridiculous subjectivist garble and anti-science snake-oil almost from the start of my participation in it.

From that vantage I know that we are in much better place as an audio hobbyists today than we were even just 20 years ago. The 'objectivist' stance has made enormous headway (thanks to the Internet, really). The old paradigm of the hobby is on the defensive.

Ridicule sure can cross to contempt when the target is people who should, and I suspect do, know better. But don't cry for subjectivists and anti-science ankle-biters being 'bashed', or worry too much about a tenor of 'righteousness of the converted' at ASR. A zombie can never be truly killed; that's what makes it a zombie. Short of a hydrogenaudio-level ban on subjectivist mysticism, zombie-defenders will continue to lurk even here on Audio Science Review. Alas.

 

[antcollinet]

AND pretty much all of us here don't lie to ourselves; We also know the facts and limitations and that a preference is just a preference. That preference being a $10K DAC, or a turntable and vinyl, or, contrary to MOST (THE REST) of the world, not using just a smartphone for music, like again, most of the world does. Hence the feel that they see this as an addiction.

Most of us here. But you only need to look at all the other subjective forums to find that most of the rest of the world are fully taken in by the bogus claims.