The online coffee/espresso culture mirrors the subjectivist audio crowd.

[fieldcar]

So, lately I've been venturing into the world of espresso, and I see no reason to overspend, much like how I approach my hifi hobby.

As any interest takes hold, I usually check out youtube to gain some insight into the whole thing, but I'm noticing a trend that leaves me frustrated.

Ask any espresso snob on social media, and you'll get the same "you need to spend at least $200 on a grinder" or "Any espresso machine under $1000 is garbage". Oh, don't forget to spend $150 on a fancy brass and stainless tamper when your included plastic tamper $1.50 does the EXACT same thing with NO ACTUAL BENEFIT.

So far, I've got a Delonghi Stilosa, a cheap-o conical burr hand grinder, and coffee. I'm still trying to get the crema to be more substantial like those nespresso's, but I don't want to go down that wasteful route. I've read a lot of it comes down to a good espresso roasted bean and a nice fine grind.

What are your thoughts on the snobbery? Have you noticed it?

Are you into espresso? What gear have you gotten? Thoughts on the fully automatic units?

 

[Adi777]

I'm sure, that the most important it's good coffee. Grinder and coffee machine? I think they are important to some extent, but coffee is still the most important.
Hmm, how about making an analogy with audio? Wouldn't coffee be the quality of the recording, the production? I think so, so what if you have a very good CD player - a grinder or a coffee machine - loudspeakers, if the quality of the music itself - coffee - is poor?
What do you think? Right analogy?

 

[OnLyTNT]

I love coffee and I have heard about those stories, thankfully I have been never tempted. I am happy with my simple, old Krups machine, French press and mediocre quality of coffee. We can observe similar behaviours almost in every hobby communities; drawing, music, hobby models, fishing etc... The more you spend, less or nothing you gain...The equipment you gather does not guarantee to put out the best. Price / Performance ratio is the key... Long story short, I don't need "Kopi Luwak" to enjoy my coffee .

 

[Adi777]

Okay, but it's only hobby. If a hobby makes you happy - even if it's not rational, I don't see a problem not to continue.

 

[Count Arthur]

There's a long thread about coffee: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...offee-do-you-and-how-do-you-consume-it.17476/

If you want to make espresso at home, you will need to budget a fair amount for a grinder and a machine. There are far less expensive ways to make coffee, pour over, mocca pot, Aeropress, etc., but none can really replicate the intensity of flavour you get with espresso.

Take a look at some of James Hoffmann's videos they should give you a few ideas: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMb0O2CdPBNi-QqPk5T3gsQ/videos

 

[majingotan]

Long story short, I don't need "Kopi Luwak" to enjoy my coffee .

Kopi Luwak is gross AF. Geisha coffee natural process is the real deal. Using filter brew or French/Aeropress they’re some of the best tasting light roast coffee I’ve had.

Not much into espresso (I’m extremely happy with just a short Americano from a Nespresso) as much as filter/percolation or immersion coffee so I never encounter those espresso and grinder snobbery

 

[recycle]

I'm old school:

 

[Waxx]

I got the luck to live close to one of the better coffee roaster (Koffie Hoorens in Zottegem, Belgium) in the wide region, and buy straight of them for prices that are a fraction what people pay in fancy shops in the big cities or in restaurants. And in Belgium we got quiet a few good roasters, and most are not that expensive for very high quality coffee if you buy straight from them. In Ghent, Belgium, where i used to live, you did have 2 in the same street even at that time (now one moved out to the suburbs).

But the machinerie is not that important, if the basics are good. I have a cheap De'Longhi ECP 31.21 and had a similar older model before, and a cheap mill that works very well, and that does the job. I don't get that snobism about gear. Just maintain your gear well and a cheap device does it as good as those machines that cost thousands. My italian ex got such a very expensive machine (Faema Rocket), and altough we never did a side by side comparasion, she also agreed that my cheap thing does the job as well. It's just not that good looking.

And at the end, a good traditional tin expersso can like the one below cost 25€ down here and makes as good coffe as the most expensive machine. It's just a bit more work to clean and you need a stove.

But the most important for good coffee is good beans, Store them airtight (so they don't loose flavor) and only mill them just before you make the coffee. Don't use premilled coffee and don't let your beans in the open air.

 

[antcollinet]

So, lately I've been venturing into the world of espresso, and I see no reason to overspend, much like how I approach my hifi hobby.

As any interest takes hold, I usually check out youtube to gain some insight into the whole thing, but I'm noticing a trend that leaves me frustrated.

Ask any espresso snob on social media, and you'll get the same "you need to spend at least $200 on a grinder" or "Any espresso machine under $1000 is garbage". Oh, don't forget to spend $150 on a fancy brass and stainless tamper when your included plastic tamper $1.50 does the EXACT same thing with NO ACTUAL BENEFIT.

So far, I've got a Delonghi Stilosa, a cheap-o conical burr hand grinder, and coffee. I'm still trying to get the crema to be more substantial like those nespresso's, but I don't want to go down that wasteful route. I've read a lot of it comes down to a good espresso roasted bean and a nice fine grind.

What are your thoughts on the snobbery? Have you noticed it?

Are you into espresso? What gear have you gotten? Thoughts on the fully automatic units?

So I am one of those coffee snobs.

I've been down the low cost machine / grinder route with a Gaggia classic, and Iberital MC2 grinder. I get my coffee from a local deli who roasts a wide selection about once/ week, so I can always get good freshly roasted beans.

It was not a bad combination - but I couldn't come close to the quality of a good independent (forget most *$/costa) coffee shop with a skilled barista. In particular, getting a decent crema, and correctly foamed milk were impossible. Flavour intensity was also lacking.

I bit the bullet and upgraded both to a Eureka mignon (around £350) and ECM Barista E61 group machine (about £1200) - and now I have to work hard to find a good coffee shop that can do better than I can at home. I've been happy for the 6+ years since, and feel no need to upgrade further (Though I'd like the grinder to be faster)

I'm not sure where the critical point between the cost of my first setup, and my current set up is - but I'm guessing it is pretty close to where I am.

BTW the performance of both a grinder and a coffee machine would be easily measurable (Though it is not often done). For a grinder in consistency of the grind (consistent size of the grind particles) and adjustment capabilty/consistency of grind "fineness". For a machine - consistency of water temperature and pressure are the primary variables.

Just like audio there is a lot of bullshit spoken about how "good" these variables need to be.

 

[fieldcar]

Right analogy?

That sounds right to me. I've only really tried the pre-ground cafe bustello, and whole bean from IKEA and my favorite local roaster Berres Brothers. I've heard the best thing you can possibly do is either roast your own or find a small batch local roaster. I'd venture out into that, but I'm kind of overstocked at the moment.

it's only hobby

Maybe that's why I just don't care to put a ton of money into it. I don't consider it a hobby. I just want a good cup-o-caffeine to start the day without going to a coffee shop every morning.

Obsessive behavior is a mental health problem. Dismissing it as a "hobby" can be one of the first signs of denial. This is true of ANY area of endeavor.

I guess the same goes for the hifi hobby. The phrase "retail therapy" comes to mind. While I've said that "chasing the dragon" in terms of hifi is bad, I'm not perfectly innocent either. I've a pair of JBL 530's just sitting in a box because I got them for $190.

 

[LouB]

To address the snobbery, so what. Your gonna find it everywhere get over it.
To address the coffee machines it's like anything else. I had a 200 dollar grinder it's not near as good as my 500 dollar grinder and yes there is a difference. My espresso machine cost about 2.2K. It's absolutely the best appliance I've ever bought.
Addi77, is right to some extent you need good coffee beans but they also need to roasted correctly, and that's the most subjective part of the coffee world just like "it sounds good to me"
Boutique roasters are now charging 20-25 dollars for a pound of coffee and have no trouble selling it. Is it better than the 12 dollar a pound stuff ? Yes it is. The price of good beans pisses me off so 2 years ago I bought a roaster get green beans for about 7 bucks a pound & roast my own, the roaster has paid for itself and than some. Am I a snob hell know I'll drink gas station coffe and enjoy it.

 

[Ricardus]

On a slightly different note, I work for a business that just started roasting and selling coffee. When people ask me about it I can't speak intelligently about it because I don't like coffee. I'm a tea drinker.

The roaster likes to put the flavor notes on the back of the bags (like wine). "Hints of blueberry and chocolate" etc....

I think people just want a good coffee. I think that whole wine snob language just confuses them and drives them away.

 

[Ron Texas]

I mostly drink instant coffee. It's audio equivalent must be a boom box, LOL.

 

[fieldcar]

So I am one of those coffee snobs.

I've been down the low cost machine / grinder route with a Gaggia classic, and Iberital MC2 grinder. I get my coffee from a local deli who roasts a wide selection about once/ week, so I can always get good freshly roasted beans.

It was not a bad combination - but I couldn't come close to the quality of a good independent (forget most *$/costa) coffee shop with a skilled barista. In particular, getting a decent crema, and correctly foamed milk were impossible. Flavour intensity was also lacking.

I bit the bullet and upgraded both to a Eureka mignon (around £350) and ECM Barista E61 group machine (about £1200) - and now I have to work hard to find a good coffee shop that can do better than I can at home. I've been happy for the 6+ years since, and feel no need to upgrade further (Though I'd like the grinder to be faster)

I'm not sure where the critical point between the cost of my first setup, and my current set up is - but I'm guessing it is pretty close to where I am.

BTW the performance of both a grinder and a coffee machine would be easily measurable (Though it is not often done). For a grinder in consistency of the grind (consistent size of the grind particles) and adjustment capabilty/consistency of grind "fineness". For a machine - consistency of water temperature and pressure are the primary variables.

Just like audio there is a lot of bullshit spoken about how "good" these variables need to be.

That sounds about right with the local roaster. I've also heard to avoid pre-ground like cafe bustello like the plague.

I think it's potentially my inexperience showing, but I've found that when it comes to latte's, I really get no further enjoyment of a local coffee shop over my (prepare yourself) Keurig cafe with the heated milk frother & reusable k-cup baskets (I don't buy the disposable pods). Though, I've really noticed that I can't quite match a plain espresso for crema. The delonghi's steam wand is incredibly frustrating though, so I could maybe see spending more for that.

Ok, maybe it is more of a hobby than I'm willing to admit.

I've seen that the ground consistency is very important, but maybe I'm not ready to go down the route of doing all of that sifting and weighing to perfect what I see as a good enough ground consistency and size.

In the end, I'm not sure if I'll be chasing the dragon quite yet for the quest for a perfect espresso, but I'm pretty happy with where I'm at for the cost.

 

[Timmeon]

I am completely down the espresso rabbit hole, but not so far that I am spritzing coffee beans before I dump them in my purpose-built $3K single dose grinder from a gofundme start-up and then massaging the puck bed with acupuncture needles. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I started years ago with a Rocket Mozzafiato open box with a Eureka Mignon Specialita. It's been absolutely solid, but it's a $2k+ setup. I've avoided upgrades entirely.

Espresso is extremely fussy, you are constantly dialing in, weather changes, coffee off-gassing, it's always a moving target. Once you find a groove it's not very complicated, and some shots will be meh, while others are near perfection. Life!

I will agree with the 'snobs' that you absolutely need a capable, consistent grinder. Otherwise dialing will be more painful than it might be worth. This is why a grinder is so important, your espresso machine is just a glorified boiler with a pump attached to it.

 

[mglobe]

I was telling a friend who is big into bourbon about sited vs blind testing isn’t the audio world, and he said it’s the same in the whisky world. When they do blind taste tests, preferences do not correlate to cost or prestige.

 

[Timmeon]

I meant to say, there is very little science involved in espresso, it seems. People constantly repeat things they read, that flat burrs are better suited for light roasts, and that conical burrs will get a velvety mouthfeel, etc., but all with very little to no substance to back it up.

But similar to audio, if you are happy with the output, who gives a shit.

 

[Adi777]

Obsessive behavior

What is obsessive behavior when it comes to the coffee hobby?

 

[dfuller]

It does a bit, but it's intensely difficult to characterize, unlike audio.

 

[fieldcar]

I will agree with the 'snobs' that you absolutely need a capable, consistent grinder. Otherwise dialing will be more painful than it might be worth. This is why a grinder is so important, your espresso machine is just a glorified boiler with a pump attached to it.

I feel like this cheap-o is doing the trick for me.

Amazon.com

I meant to say, there is very little science involved in espresso, it seems. People constantly repeat things they read, that flat burrs are better suited for light roasts, and that conical burrs will get a velvety mouthfeel, etc., but all with very little to no substance to back it up.

But similar to audio, if you are happy with the output, who gives a shit.

Yep, just like audio. I'm perfectly happy with my JBL 590's, while some audio snobs would tell me that it's a good start and that I need to start considering speakers above $10K to even start to reach the "end game".