This may be a difficult question, and I suspect it might end badly, but over the weekend I was taken to task for still listening to a recording of Schubert lieder recorded by Kathleen Battle accompanied by James Levine on piano on account of the sex scandal concerning James Levine. I know Kathleen Battle had a reputation for being,ahem...difficult...and got the order of the boot from the Met in the early 90's but regardless of that I think she was an incredibly gifted singer with a beautiful voice and an ability to convey emotional depth in her performances. This particular Schubert lieder disc is my favourite lieder album and Battle's performance was outstanding. I'd always seen James Levine as a supporting act on the piano (albeit a supporting act delivered extremely well) but I was all but ordered to dispose of the disc. I'm a bit conflicted about this, as Kathleen Battle hasn't been accused of sexual misconduct (being a self obsessed diva may tick people off and be unpleasant but it's hardly a crime and not exactly unusual in the world of arts) and it is for her voice that I listen to the recording. On the other hand I can see why people object to the recording given what James Levine has been accused of. This is not a unique case, Charles Dutoit was dismissed following similar allegations and there are plenty of others. In many cases the performers concerned have never been found guilty of any crime and in the UK at least because of one particularly ghastly very high profile case involving a former TV presenter there is an air of almost hysteria around this whle subject area with an almost lynch mob mentality at the first hint of an allegation. I am really unsure about it all, for now I am continuing to enjoy Kathleen Battle's voice.
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When is it right to denounce music and stop playing it?
- Thread starter JJB70
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Kathleen Battle was the epitome of the Diva behavior and had a voice to match the term too... There was an account that the entire orchestra stood up and applaud when they learned she was fired from the Met ... I am a big fan of Battle. Levine leaves me neitral .. Very good and competent IMO.
Tough one here. I don't have much to bring here. Those are allegations and in these days one needs to wait for the verdict before accusing someone .. yet the circumstances do not play in Levine favor
It is about Battle though, I, emphasis on I, would keep enjoying the recording
Tough one here. I don't have much to bring here. Those are allegations and in these days one needs to wait for the verdict before accusing someone .. yet the circumstances do not play in Levine favor
It is about Battle though, I, emphasis on I, would keep enjoying the recording
I suppose you haven't heard about Levine's despicable behavior.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #5
Just to be clear, the questions are around James Levine, NOT Kathleen Battle. Apologies if my post is badly worded on that, Battle may have had a history of poor behaviour but her behaviour was hardly unusual for a diva and I have no problem continuing to enjoy her wonderful voice.
I make a distinction between giving people I now disapprove off more money, and continuing to play / watch what I already have.
You need to make your own decisions, and be clear to yourself about how you get to that decision, same as anyone who makes a different decision to you does who then challenges you on it.
Would a conviction change your position?
You need to make your own decisions, and be clear to yourself about how you get to that decision, same as anyone who makes a different decision to you does who then challenges you on it.
Would a conviction change your position?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #7
A conviction changes things as it has gone beyond allegation (and I'm not inferring that allegations are baseless, I suspect some are but many are valid). I think the nature of the recording also has an influence, if it was a piano sonata performed by James Levine I think maybe my attitude would be different but I bought the disc for Battle's singing (she may have been a diva, she was also a magnificent singer) and it seems sad that some of her performances (many of which were truly superb) might be expunged in a reaction against Levine. I'm honestly figuring out what to think and am slightly conflicted on the matter.
Every man and every woman have both good and bad sides. One should not dismiss the good because of the bad. Doing this with consequence means that you have to dump most of the music.
Richard Wagner was an antisemit but his music is outstanding. Adolf Hitler was a fan of Wagner - does this mean one is not allowed to listen to Wagner?
You can see where this ends, so just forget about this and enjoy the music you like.
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I buy music for the music- if the performers and composers had to share my particular moral views, I'd have damn little to choose from. (I would extend this to cover all art and science, not just music)
It's sort of the mirror image of my annoyance at musicians for feeling that they have to lecture me on morality or politics or even science(!).
It's sort of the mirror image of my annoyance at musicians for feeling that they have to lecture me on morality or politics or even science(!).
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I think that if one goes down that road, one can start worrying about the musicians, the recording engineers, the producers, the shop we bought our CD from... ad infinitum. In an ideal world, justice would establish the facts, decide on compensation for the victims and that would be it...
Should we, according to our current moral standards, stop using all the math and philosophy that Ancient Greece has given us?
Should we, according to our current moral standards, stop using all the math and philosophy that Ancient Greece has given us?
This is truly up to the individual. Levines predilections have been known in the classical music world since the 80's, probably further back. Does this make everyone who made music with him also culpable? Should we also get rid of all the Cleveland recordings as 2 members have been dismissed for sexual misconduct? Vienna too, they really only want white males in their orchestra. This is a really deep hole to go down when talking about the world of serious music.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #14
There is an old adage that enthusiasts of sausages and laws should never inquire about how either is made. I guess the same can be said of music. The culpability of others is interesting, as it would appear that the scandal which initiated the hysteria in the UK was widely known about in media, TV and celeb circles for decades, many of the newspapers and journalists that climbed on moral high horses after the event saw no reason to inform the world about it before the story broke elsewhere.
Some artists are just evil, no matter how talented they are. Once we learnt their wickedness, it is hard to take that away. Especially all art is eventually about emotion, not just about skills. Art is in the business of understanding, expressing, appreciating humanity. It is impossible, at least for me, to stop thinking about the viciousness when enjoying the art.
It doesn't mean that I can't "enjoy" it anymore, but the feeling is no longer the same...
It doesn't mean that I can't "enjoy" it anymore, but the feeling is no longer the same...
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If you can find piano players as good as Levine, or even better, at playing the pieces you like, you should go for them instead of supporting him.
If not possible, you could still listen to him I guess, even if his behaviour prevents you from advising him to others
If not possible, you could still listen to him I guess, even if his behaviour prevents you from advising him to others
I make my living in the arts and can tell you that this sort of thing is certainly not limited to music. I make it a point to not meet any more authors, artists and musicians that I know are foul human beings just so I can continue to enjoy the good that somehow escapes them when the muse strikes or their guard is down. Will never read Nikki Giovanni again it was so bad. I know that I, personally, am viewed by some of my peers as "difficult" because I speak truth - but not because of illegal or illicit behaviors or thoughts.
Go on enjoying your music. Ignore the tabloids and hysterical on-listeners. Art evokes both the beautiful and the sublime and if personal scandal had anything to do with the enjoyment of it there would be precious little in our libraries, museums or on our turntables...
Go on enjoying your music. Ignore the tabloids and hysterical on-listeners. Art evokes both the beautiful and the sublime and if personal scandal had anything to do with the enjoyment of it there would be precious little in our libraries, museums or on our turntables...
Hugo9000
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Regarding Kathleen Battle and her behavior at the Met, there has been talk for decades apparently that one of Levine's victims was related to her, and that she approached management to report the abuse, and her behavior at least partially arose from the way the accusations were treated. Levine was the opera company's cash cow, so if those stories were true, it puts a different light on her dismissal and blacklisting.
I never bought any recording because of Levine, the few in my collection where he was conductor were purchased because of the singer(s), such as Leontyne Price or Kathleen Battle. I was never particularly impressed by his conducting, although I wouldn't go so far as to say he ruined performances. Competent but vastly overrated as a conductor in my view. I do own his recording of the Saint-Saëns "Organ" Symphony, but it's no hardship to never listen to it again, as I have two other recordings of that symphony that I vastly prefer anyway.
I never bought any recording because of Levine, the few in my collection where he was conductor were purchased because of the singer(s), such as Leontyne Price or Kathleen Battle. I was never particularly impressed by his conducting, although I wouldn't go so far as to say he ruined performances. Competent but vastly overrated as a conductor in my view. I do own his recording of the Saint-Saëns "Organ" Symphony, but it's no hardship to never listen to it again, as I have two other recordings of that symphony that I vastly prefer anyway.
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