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Your Fusion Dollars at Work...

RayDunzl

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maxxevv

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Pretty sure the LHC at CERN is far larger and has far more parts though.... :p

That aside, its exciting times ahead if we do get a viable Fusion reactor in our lifetime. It will fundamentally change how humanity functions as a society in my opinion.
 

Frank Dernie

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A friend of ours was a senior vacuum physicist on the JET project a Cullam and I went round on an open day about 40 years ago.
Every single parameter, from power to temperature defied comprehension. Never seen anything like it!
 

SoundAndMotion

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That aside, its exciting times ahead if we do get a viable Fusion reactor in our lifetime. It will fundamentally change how humanity functions as a society in my opinion.
I disagree. I worked for 6 years in a Tokamak Fusion Research Lab. Research is important there, because fusion was never planned or achieved. The goal was to study plasma confinement in toroids (tokamaks). While that doesn't make me an expert, I was a physics student part of that time and I did look into many issues since I was very interested.

At the time, the big selling points (fusion-ophile points) were no runaways (meltdowns/accidents)(for magnetic containment), limitless fuel and no nuclear waste.

The last 2 are quite deceptive. Controlled fusion is very difficult, and the easiest reaction (lowest ignition temperature) is 2H - 3H (deuterium - tritium). There's plenty of deuterium in seawater, but tritium has to be produced from lithium, which is limited enough to be a consideration. But that's the "little" problem. The big problem is that reaction produces neutrons, which bombard the inner wall of the containment vessel, making them radioactive. Within a fairly short time (5-10 years?), the inner wall will be degraded to the point of needing replacement. And they will be highly radioactive (nuclear waste). At that time (70's-80's), it was expected that the walls would need very exotic and constrained metals.

Those problems would be solved with a neutron-less reaction. But the easiest neutron-less reaction (proton-boron) is something like 10 times more difficult to produce.

I hope these problems are being solved, but fusion is hardly an energy panacea. Also, it's been a while, but all the estimates I saw from the 60's through the 90's said energy-breakeven in about 10-15 years, economic breakeven in about 20 years and reactors online in about 30. All the estimates... 60's-90's. I wonder what the estimates/promises are today
 

maxxevv

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Yes, I 'm aware of the issues you raised but of course only on a superficial level.

But they are still comparatively much easier to sort out than fission waste and the environmental impact much less than fossil fuels.
Half life of radioactive waste from fusion reactors is typically in the range of 50 years, compared to the thousands for fission waste.

Maybe the methods we use for forcing a fusion process isn't the most elegant nor even correct to begin with.

In the stars, its all gravity.

The funny thing is, physicists despite all the years studying it, cannot agree on what exactly gravity is. Or more specifically why it behaves that way and where its actually derived from.

Perhaps we will eventually be able to do a controlled fusion process if we fully understand and is thus able to manipulate gravity to our bidding. And perhaps then we would have unlocked the secrets of space / time and have Warp Drives like in Star Trek too. :)
 
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RayDunzl

RayDunzl

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Blumlein 88

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I disagree. I worked for 6 years in a Tokamak Fusion Research Lab. Research is important there, because fusion was never planned or achieved. The goal was to study plasma confinement in toroids (tokamaks). While that doesn't make me an expert, I was a physics student part of that time and I did look into many issues since I was very interested.

At the time, the big selling points (fusion-ophile points) were no runaways (meltdowns/accidents)(for magnetic containment), limitless fuel and no nuclear waste.

The last 2 are quite deceptive. Controlled fusion is very difficult, and the easiest reaction (lowest ignition temperature) is 2H - 3H (deuterium - tritium). There's plenty of deuterium in seawater, but tritium has to be produced from lithium, which is limited enough to be a consideration. But that's the "little" problem. The big problem is that reaction produces neutrons, which bombard the inner wall of the containment vessel, making them radioactive. Within a fairly short time (5-10 years?), the inner wall will be degraded to the point of needing replacement. And they will be highly radioactive (nuclear waste). At that time (70's-80's), it was expected that the walls would need very exotic and constrained metals.

Those problems would be solved with a neutron-less reaction. But the easiest neutron-less reaction (proton-boron) is something like 10 times more difficult to produce.

I hope these problems are being solved, but fusion is hardly an energy panacea. Also, it's been a while, but all the estimates I saw from the 60's through the 90's said energy-breakeven in about 10-15 years, economic breakeven in about 20 years and reactors online in about 30. All the estimates... 60's-90's. I wonder what the estimates/promises are today
You are an optimist or maybe better informed. The old saying I've heard most of my life is:

Functioning fusion reactors are only 50 years away, and always will be. :)
 

NTomokawa

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Functioning fusion reactors are only 50 years away, and always will be.
If only we could encase the Sun in a solar panel sphere and wirelessly beam the power back to Earth... Hmm...
 

Blumlein 88

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That's called a Dyson Sphere.
Yes, and Ringworld is the open alternative. We don't have to get greedy and capture all the solar output do we? At least not yet.

There is the model from a few years ago which said if we had started seeing 3% annual economic growth when the pyramids in Egypt were finished, by now we would have used up all the resources in the entire solar system and all the energy output of the sun and more. But hey we didn't start that kind of sustained growth until much later like the 1850's or so. So the party will last a while longer. Long enough for me anyway. :)
 

Tks

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Yes, and Ringworld is the open alternative. We don't have to get greedy and capture all the solar output do we? At least not yet.

There is the model from a few years ago which said if we had started seeing 3% annual economic growth when the pyramids in Egypt were finished, by now we would have used up all the resources in the entire solar system and all the energy output of the sun and more. But hey we didn't start that kind of sustained growth until much later like the 1850's or so. So the party will last a while longer. Long enough for me anyway. :)

Interesting
 

Blumlein 88

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The nub of the question!
The question is not whether it will end, a finite world can not support continual growth, obviously, but when.

Maybe it will follow this bacteria growth curve. If so we started in the log phase about 1850. When do we reach the stationary phase? I don't know, but if we haven't gotten off planet by the death phase things will grow worse in time.

1576767737497.png
 
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Frank Dernie

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Maybe it will follow this bacteria growth curve. If so we started in the log phase about 1850. When do we reach the stationary phase? I don't know, but if we haven't gotten off planet by the death phase things will grow worse in time.

View attachment 42987
Well if you take all species, not just we naked apes, we are already in the death phase, the stationary phase finished in the 1970s.
 

Berwhale

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Blumlein 88

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Well if you take all species, not just we naked apes, we are already in the death phase, the stationary phase finished in the 1970s.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. What information leads you to that conclusion?

Species have been going extinct for quite some time. More than 99% of all species are extinct. I do read that it is now being called the 6th great mass extinction. OTOH, as the environment warms there will be a greater mass of living bacteria. Hard to say about the living organisms planetwide just yet.
 
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