Vera Audio midrange horn - polar measurements

[sigbergaudio]

@Bjorn Looks good on these at least. So how wide/narrow do you estimate the actual beam width is? 40-ish?

 

[Bjorn]

@Bjorn Looks good on these at least. So how wide/narrow do you estimate the actual beam width is? 40-ish?

80-90° horizontally and 50-70° vertically. A beam width is left+right or up+down.
The midbass horn is actually narrower than the top horn. So measured together we have the quite unusual directivity of getting slightly narrower below 500-700 Hz.

 

[kemmler3D]

Directivity looks very usable, but what we all really want to know: how are the dynamics? Horns are supposed to have a very "physical" character, would you say that's the case with these?

 

[Bjorn]

Directivity looks very usable, but what we all really want to know: how are the dynamics? Horns are supposed to have a very "physical" character, would you say that's the case with these?

Dynamics is often defined differently.

Obviously it can play super load. Above 125 dB at 1 m distance from one speaker for most of the area of the top horn. And in the area of 135-140 dB from one midbass horn. Both horns load well and add to the sensitivity. A horn loaded 15" driver is quite similar in output to three 15" front firing quality woofers. This is the reason it wouldn't be appropritate to add a typical commercial subwoofer to this. It simply can't keep up with the SPL or the low modulation distortion.

The speaker doesn't suffer from thermal compression like traditional speakers. So the frequency will remain the same over time and with various listening levels.

A horn has a very fast impulse response. I think that's one of the main reasons why a horn sounds more engaging and gives the experience of a sudden transient. Though the horn can play super load, it's also a speaker that IMO works better at lower volumes. If someone for various reasons don't listen loud, a horn system like this has advantages over most speaker designs.

What maybe sets this horn system aside from other horn speakers is the combination of a broadband uniform directivity, ability to maintain the directivity high in frequency, no floor bounce, horn loading low in frequency, top quality drivers - like compression driver with beryllium diaphragm with very low breakup (something very few uses, see more about the advantage here: https://materion.com/-/media/files/...on-driver-audio-beryllium-whitepaper-2018.pdf), no X-over in a sensitive area and practically no lobing/combing, active with DSP with amp to each driver, time aligned, and linear phase migh be the icing of the cake.

This is also a system where we will help buyers with tuning to the room and to their taste as well integration with a subwoofer solution. Price isn't going to be low, but still very modest compared to what's usual in the high-end world and for large horn speakers. Shipping cost to certain countries outside of Europe is unfortunately high though, and especially at these times.

 

[Tom C]

Absolutely beautiful in design, and stunning performance. You put your money where your mouth is, Bjorn!

 

[Duke]

80-90° horizontally and 50-70° vertically. A beam width is left+right or up+down.
The midbass horn is actually narrower than the top horn. So measured together we have the quite unusual directivity of getting slightly narrower below 500-700 Hz.

Does your top horn have a 1.4" throat or a 2" throat? If it's not a diffraction horn I would expect a 1.4" throat's radiation pattern width to be a bit better in the top end, but there may be other tradeoffs involved.

What is the reasoning behind using a midbass horn with a bit narrower pattern than the top horn? That's a very interesting design choice, and I presume it has to do with improved room interaction.

If the answer to either of these questions is a trade secret, no problem, I understand, and appreciate how open you've been with details about your design already.

 

[Bjorn]

Are there any rough estimates on prices? Thanks.

I've set up a ballpark number. This can change, but our goal is to not go any higher.

1. A pair of Sagarmatha horns with Amercian walnut veneer and black matte painted rear + Danville dspNexus 2/8 with AK4493S and 14 days with external assistance with tuning:
256 200 NOK or $25,186 with today's currency - excluding VAT and shipment

2. A pair of Sagarmatha horns with Amercian walnut veneer and black matte painted rear + Danville dspNexus 2/8 with AK4499EX and 14 days with external assistance with tuning:
265 400 NOK or $26,090 with today's currency - excluding VAT and shipment

Custom finish is possible. Oh, the rear platform for the rear chamber is veneered as standard by the way.

This is without our dual 18" push push subwoofer. I can't quote the subwoofer quite yet.

As can be seen the Danville dspNexus will come with two different DAC chip options. I don't know if the more expensive DAC chip will sound any different, may be only chasing better numbers. The Danville dspNexus will function as preamp and multichannel DAC. With 8 outputs, it can be combined with multiple subwoofers (4 available channels).

Another option will be with the upcoming DEQX Pre-8. https://www.deqx.com/products/
Can't price the DEQX yet, but it will be considerably more expensive than the Danvill dspNexus 2/8.

While not cheap, I think this is quite reasonable compared to other large horns or other speakers out there or many. If we start to use dealers, price will increase. But we're selling only direct to start with.

Close to afford it, but not quite there? We're considering setting up a discount for a few early birds. And there's also a prototype pair with some deviations in finish and slight different dimensions that can be bought for a much lower price, if someone can live with that!

As an early bird, you might have to live with details like lack of printed name on boxes (crate and cartons) and packaging method could change later.

At least in the beginning, it's a only system built on orders. Will be a pre-payment percentage required. Delivery time can vary, but normally it will be a 2-3 months.

 

[MKR]

I've set up a ballpark number. This can change, but our goal is to not go any higher.

1. A pair of Sagarmatha horns with Amercian walnut veneer and black matte painted rear + Danville dspNexus 2/8 with AK4493S and 14 days with external assistance with tuning:
256 200 NOK or $25,186 with today's currency - excluding VAT and shipment

2. A pair of Sagarmatha horns with Amercian walnut veneer and black matte painted rear + Danville dspNexus 2/8 with AK4499EX and 14 days with external assistance with tuning:
265 400 NOK or $26,090 with today's currency - excluding VAT and shipment

Custom finish is possible. Oh, the rear platform for the rear chamber is veneered as standard by the way.

This is without our dual 18" push push subwoofer. I can't quote the subwoofer quite yet.

As can be seen the Danville dspNexus will come with two different DAC chip options. I don't know if the more expensive DAC chip will sound any different, may be only chasing better numbers. The Danville dspNexus will function as preamp and multichannel DAC. With 8 outputs, it can be combined with multiple subwoofers (4 available channels).

Another option will be with the upcoming DEQX Pre-8. https://www.deqx.com/products/
Can't price the DEQX yet, but it will be considerably more expensive than the Danvill dspNexus 2/8.

While not cheap, I think this is quite reasonable compared to other large horns or other speakers out there or many. If we start to use dealers, price will increase. But we're selling only direct to start with.

Close to afford it, but not quite there? We're considering setting up a discount for a few early birds. And there's also a prototype pair with some deviations in finish and slight different dimensions that can be bought for a much lower price, if someone can live with that!

As an early bird, you might have to live with details like lack of printed name on boxes (crate and cartons) and packaging method could change later.

At least in the beginning, it's a only system built on orders. Will be a pre-payment percentage required. Delivery time can vary, but normally it will be a 2-3 months.

Very interesting. Been watching that dspNexus and was just waiting for someone to use it in a commercial active system, kudos on that choice. Maybe I missed it in prior post, but what are you using for amplification?

 

[Bjorn]

Does your top horn have a 1.4" throat or a 2" throat? If it's not a diffraction horn I would expect a 1.4" throat's radiation pattern width to be a bit better in the top end, but there may be other tradeoffs involved.

What is the reasoning behind using a midbass horn with a bit narrower pattern than the top horn? That's a very interesting design choice, and I presume it has to do with improved room interaction.

If the answer to either of these questions is a trade secret, no problem, I understand, and appreciate how open you've been with details about your design already.

1.4" exit.
I knew the top horn could be wider than the simulations before we had it designed. And I knew that a slightly wider dispersion from it vs the midbass horn would be fine and perhaps even an advantage. I think you can understand why, plus maintaining a very narrow vertical directivity low in frequency requires a lot of height.

 

[Bjorn]

Very interesting. Been watching that dspNexus and was just waiting for someone to use it in a commercial active system, kudos on that choice. Maybe I missed it in prior post, but what are you using for amplification?

The prices are without amplification. It's all external electronics where people can choose the amps they want.

Personally and not surprisingly I'm using our Vera Audio power amps. VA P150/600 RS for top horn and the P400/1000 for the midbass horn.

Vera Audio P150/600 RS

Vera Audio P400/1000

Both of these have very accurate gain adjustments. Most amps will cause hiss in especially the top horn where the sensivitiy reaches about 114-115 dB at a certain frequency. But that's something we avoid completely by turning down the gain. Plus I can adjust the level to both horns with the gain control.

 

[hvbias]

I've set up a ballpark number. This can change, but our goal is to not go any higher.

1. A pair of Sagarmatha horns with Amercian walnut veneer and black matte painted rear + Danville dspNexus 2/8 with AK4493S and 14 days with external assistance with tuning:
256 200 NOK or $25,186 with today's currency - excluding VAT and shipment

2. A pair of Sagarmatha horns with Amercian walnut veneer and black matte painted rear + Danville dspNexus 2/8 with AK4499EX and 14 days with external assistance with tuning:
265 400 NOK or $26,090 with today's currency - excluding VAT and shipment

Custom finish is possible. Oh, the rear platform for the rear chamber is veneered as standard by the way.

This is without our dual 18" push push subwoofer. I can't quote the subwoofer quite yet.

As can be seen the Danville dspNexus will come with two different DAC chip options. I don't know if the more expensive DAC chip will sound any different, may be only chasing better numbers. The Danville dspNexus will function as preamp and multichannel DAC. With 8 outputs, it can be combined with multiple subwoofers (4 available channels).

Another option will be with the upcoming DEQX Pre-8. https://www.deqx.com/products/
Can't price the DEQX yet, but it will be considerably more expensive than the Danvill dspNexus 2/8.

While not cheap, I think this is quite reasonable compared to other large horns or other speakers out there or many. If we start to use dealers, price will increase. But we're selling only direct to start with.

Close to afford it, but not quite there? We're considering setting up a discount for a few early birds. And there's also a prototype pair with some deviations in finish and slight different dimensions that can be bought for a much lower price, if someone can live with that!

As an early bird, you might have to live with details like lack of printed name on boxes (crate and cartons) and packaging method could change later.

At least in the beginning, it's a only system built on orders. Will be a pre-payment percentage required. Delivery time can vary, but normally it will be a 2-3 months.

Thank you very much. I would echo @Puretile Audio's suggestion to have the ends of the midrange/treble horn line up with the bass horn for aesthetic reasons. You're already offering some nice veneers for aesthetic reasons.

 

[Duke]

Both of these have very accurate gain adjustments [for each channel]. Most amps will cause hiss in especially the top horn where the sensivitiy reaches about 114-115 dB at a certain frequency. But that's something we avoid completely by turning down the gain. Plus I can adjust the level to both horns with the gain control. (emphasis Duke's)

That is BRILLIANT.

 

[MKR]

The prices are without amplification. It's all external electronics where people can choose the amps they want.

Personally and not surprisingly I'm using our Vera Audio power amps. VA P150/600 RS for top horn and the P400/1000 for the midbass horn.

Vera Audio P150/600 RS

Vera Audio P400/1000

Both of these have very accurate gain adjustments. Most amps will cause hiss in especially the top horn where the sensivitiy reaches about 114-115 dB at a certain frequency. But that's something we avoid completely by turning down the gain. Plus I can adjust the level to both horns with the gain control.
View attachment 338871

Thanks @Bjorn … I do very much like the idea of having the DSP and amplification be separate from the speaker cabinets. While I well understand the reasoning for pro studio users, I have never liked having the DSP and amplification integrated into the speaker cab as is the case for most actives.

 

[Trdat]

I am a big horn fan and love this project.

I am just curious why the decision to continue the directivity to the 200/300hz region was taken by the woofer and not the compresison driver. I mean, I get the general consensus is for the CD to get to around 700/800hz and for the woofer to take over but is there a reasoning behind choosing the woofer over CD?

 

[Bjorn]

I am a big horn fan and love this project.

I am just curious why the decision to continue the directivity to the 200/300hz region was taken by the woofer and not the compresison driver. I mean, I get the general consensus is for the CD to get to around 700/800hz and for the woofer to take over but is there a reasoning behind choosing the woofer over CD?

That's related to a combination of where the driver is comfortable crossing, achieve the desired vertical directicity and even frequency response in the listening position. There are no compression drivers that can be comfortable crossed as low as 200/300 Hz combined with very low distortion and breakup in mids and highs. And even if such driver existed. I wouldn't crossover that low for various acoustic reasons.

700/800 Hz is too high IMO by the way.

 

[Bjorn]

Thanks @Bjorn … I do very much like the idea of having the DSP and amplification be separate from the speaker cabinets. While I well understand the reasoning for pro studio users, I have never liked having the DSP and amplification integrated into the speaker cab as is the case for most actives.

I like that too and the flexibility. While there a sake of ease with internal electronics, I don't think that's the route to take with a speaker with the goal of the highest performance and especially not a horn speaker with very high sensitivity. There are also those who want to experiment with electronics, like for instance use a valve amp for the top horn etc. I like to give that freedom. New DSPs with new features is likely to also come at a point.

And though I assume someone might disagree with this, I don't believe internal electronics we have today are truly transparent sounding either. It's quite easy to hear the difference between the Hypex DLCP and a better DSP/DAC. I'm not sure why, it could be related to sampling rate rather than SINAD. Someone I consider an objectivist and do proper comparison have said that the Hypex plate amps sound better using analogue in than digital in. I haven't tested this myself.

However, with the speaker below I'm also working on, I'm going to offer both options. Internal Hypex plate amps and the use of externals. But that's speaker at much lower price point, where I believe it's right to give the option of plate amps. After all, internal electronics lowers the cost for the customer.

 

[Purité Audio]

8Cs and Mantas both have digital/analogue input options, I have compared with two pairs of 8Cs ( pascal amps) and couldn’t hear any difference between analogue and digital, the Mantas are Hypex , I could compare I suppose, I wouldn’t expect there to be any difference Kiis are hypex too but not plate variety.
Keith

 

[MKR]

I like that too and the flexibility. While there a sake of ease with internal electronics, I don't think that's the route to take with a speaker with the goal of the highest performance and especially not a horn speaker with very high sensitivity. There are also those who want to experiment with electronics, like for instance use a valve amp for the top horn etc. I like to give that freedom. New DSPs with new features is likely to also come at a point.

And though I assume someone might disagree with this, I don't believe internal electronics we have today are truly transparent sounding either. It's quite easy to hear the difference between the Hypex DLCP and a better DSP/DAC. I'm not sure why, it could be related to sampling rate rather than SINAD. Someone I consider an objectivist and do proper comparison have said that the Hypex plate amps sound better using analogue in than digital in. I haven't tested this myself.

However, with the speaker below I'm also working on, I'm going to offer both options. Internal Hypex plate amps and the use of externals. But that's speaker at much lower price point, where I believe it's right to give the option of plate amps. After all, internal electronics lowers the cost for the customer.

Not to derail, but you just knew I was going to get stuck on this comment … Quite easy to hear difference between Hypex and “better” DSP/DAC? Not sure how you get better than what is in the Hypex (Fusion), to my ears fully transparent. What were the test conditions where you heard this supposed difference? What were the differences? And I have heard from multiple folks very experienced with the Fusion products and there is no audible difference between analog and dig in. With this said, I did reach out to Hypex directly some months ago and they stated you should always use the dig in if possible (related to avoiding the extra conversions I assume), but again I expect no audible difference, though I do not have first hand experience comparing analog vs dig in.

 

[Bjorn]

Not to derail, but you just knew I was going to get stuck on this comment … Quite easy to hear difference between Hypex and “better” DSP/DAC? Not sure how you get better than what is in the Hypex (Fusion), to my ears fully transparent. What were the test conditions where you heard this supposed difference? What were the differences? And I have heard from multiple folks very experienced with the Fusion products and there is no audible difference between analog and dig in. With this said, I did reach out to Hypex directly some months ago and they stated you should always use the dig in if possible (related to avoiding the extra conversions I assume), but again I expect no audible difference, though I do not have first hand experience comparing analog vs dig in.

AB comparison with level matching. I experienced the difference to a degree where I felt blind test wasn't needed here. Basically better clarity or openness to the sound. Perhaps also tad tighter bass, but that might be more related to general greater clarity of mids/highs.

Audibility of something like this is IMO very dependend on speakers and room acoustics. In poor acoustic rooms I've struggled to hear differences between something like the old miniDSP 2/8 HD (didn't measure that great) and a transparent DAC. In a good acoustical room where there's control over low frequency resonances, a short decay and specular energy are sufficiently attenuated, smaller details become more audible. But speakers also matter. A horn speaker with a quality compression driver sounds more open and detailed vs traditional drivers/speakers.

 

[Purité Audio]

I haven’t really found that a quality compression driver ( Cessaro used TAD drivers almost exclusively ) to sound more open or more detailed, more coloured yes.
The Danleys did sound very clear, but I assumed that was more to do with their narrow directionality.
One of the reasons I find your designs interesting.
Keith