Uncoloured phono cartridges

[watchnerd]

This is the closer for tonight.

View attachment 120371

Listening to the "Tone Poet" version, after the Disk Union.

Granted, one is stereo, the other mono.

Overall, I've been pretty pleased with the Tone Poet series for the price asked. Some issues, of course, are better than others.

But I really need to get an original stereo version to compare.

 

[JP]

You mean the BN 75th anniversary edition? I tried a few of those when they first came out but the pressing quality was quite poor so they all went back. I've no idea if they did better along the way. I have most of the 80th anniversary edition except for this year where it's getting very repetitive, and find the quality of those are rather good. Most of the Tone Poets are done very well.

 

[watchnerd]

You mean the BN 75th anniversary edition? I tried a few of those when they first came out but the pressing quality was quite poor so they all went back. I've no idea if they did better along the way. I have most of the 80th anniversary edition except for this year where it's getting very repetitive, and find the quality of those are rather good. Most of the Tone Poets are done very well.

I goofed.

I was listening to the MM version.

 

[JP]

45 or 33?

 

[watchnerd]

45 or 33?

33

Which is why I mistook it and the UMe logo on the spine.

 

[JP]

Yep easy to do.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Could i EQ my cartridge by using LPs and CDs with the same music on them?

For example, i have Peter Gabriels "SO" album, both on CD and LP. By recording and comparing both, i should be able to make an estimated statement about the frequency response of my turntable, preamp and cartridge.

Edit: Ok, i skipped a few pages back and my brilliant and unique idea was stolen from me, even before i conceived it.

 

[board]

I haven't read all 33 pages of comments, rather just a few comments, so I'll just comment a bit on the original question: Can you mention some neutral phono cartridges?

I have plenty of measurements of non-neutral phono cartridges that I can share, since most phono cartridges are not neutral, and I would even claim that the majority of vinylphiles aim specifically for cartridges that are not neutral - they want vinyl to sound different than digital, so therefore they choose a cartridge with a specific flavour that they like - after having tried cartridges that were either too "harsh" or too "dull" sounding or whatever.

Anyway, besides finding measurements online, what I've done with cartridges I've had in my possession has been to record a song from a record that I know to have been cut flat from the CD master and then compare the CD-rip with the recording of the vinyl record with the plugin Voxengo CurveEQ, which shows the difference in EQ between the two, which means it draws a line, which will be the frequency response of the cartridge.

The records I've used for this are:
* Type O Negative "October Rust"
* Living Colour "Stain"
* Iron Maiden "Fear of the dark" and "Brave new world". "No prayer for the dying" should also be okay, although I haven't tried with that album.
* Aerosmith "Get a grip"
* Ghost "If you have ghosts" EP
* Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" (original CD from 1985)
Many other records are also cut flat from the CD master, so you can easily find another record to do this.

As you might know, the frequency response of MM cartridges changes with the amount of capacitance, while MC cartridges seem to be immune to this, but MCs can be sensitive to the amount of ohms that you load them with, although testing this with an Audio Technica AT33PTG/II showed that this particular cartridge didn't change its frequency response when I changed the ohm load anywhere from 75 to 1000 ohms.

Anyway, the most neutral phono cartridge I have ever come across has been the Nagaoka MP-500, which is an MM cartridge.
This is the chart I made (the phono preamp was an NAD PP-4). The steep increase at the lowest frequencies is simply rumble, which is the case with all the pictures in this post:

I actually preferred the sound of the slightly less neutral Goldring Elite, so when I had them both on trial I ended up buying that one instead, as the slight spike around 10 kHz on the Goldring gives the music a nice sparkle. Please ignore the drastic increase at the very highest frequencies. I don't know exactly why this showed up:

Two other very neutral cartridges that I haven't tried myself are:

The Dynavector - DV XX2 mk2 (measured by Hifi Critic):

And the Hana EL and Hana EH (EL is low output, EH is high output):

Just for comparisons sake, here' the Hana SH (shibata, high output), which I tried out:

Eventually, I replaced my Goldring Elite with an Audio Technica AT33PTG/II, which is even less accurate, but something just didn't sound right with the Goldring Elite. It could have been distortion. The Audio Technicas are known for being some of the best trackers on the market, although I haven't examined this myself. Here's its chart - not so noticeable is a very slight dip in the harshness region:

Just to compare, here's my other current cartridge, the Audio Technica VM750SH with NAD PP-4 phono preamp:

With my new Mofi Studiophono preamp it looks slightly different, which I think is due to less capacitance in the Mofi, as it seems that the higher capacitance in the NAD pushes down the harshness region slightly, increases the big spike a bit, and also pushes down the very highest frequencies (the roll-off after the spike) a bit. Although it's not a big audible difference, I did pass an ABX test with the two different phono preamps:

Although the VM750SH is an MM cartridge, many MC cartridges have frequency responses with big spikes around 10-15 kHz like the charts above.
And also for comparisons sake, here's the cartridge I had a few years ago, a Rega Exact (MM):

Despite the uneven curve, this frequency response made many bright records sound really nice.

Then, here's the much-loved Denon 103:

And a cheap Audio Technica AT-VM95E (there are many different types of AT-95 with different letter combinations at the end, depending on the stylus tip):

Then, just to finish off, Lyra cartridges are some of the most expensive cartridges on the market, and some people consider them some of the finest cartridges money can buy.
Here are a few charts:

Lyra Dorian (measured by TNT audio). Notice both the boost in bass, slight dip in the harshness region as well as the obvious increase in the highest frequencies (the drop-off might be due to the test record):

Lyra Delos (the replacement for the Dorian):

Lyra ETNA SL (measured by Hi-Fi News):

Lyra Atlas, their most expensive model (measured by Stereoplay):

 

[LTig]

I haven't read all 33 pages of comments, rather just a few comments, so I'll just comment a bit on the original question: Can you mention some neutral phono cartridges?

I'd say my Van den Hul MC1 Special is fairly neutral. Its tonality is very close to CD in those cases where the LP and the CD are from early 80ies, like Dire Straits Money for Nothing or John Jackson's Body and Soul. Or Kari Bremnes Svarta Bjørn from 1994. This when using my DIY MC phono preamp which has an extremely precise RIAA deemphasis (it was measured at 20 Hz-20 kHz +/- 0.03 dB).

 

[Angsty]

I haven't read all 33 pages of comments, rather just a few comments, so I'll just comment a bit on the original question: Can you mention some neutral phono cartridges?

I have plenty of measurements of non-neutral phono cartridges that I can share, since most phono cartridges are not neutral, and I would even claim that the majority of vinylphiles aim specifically for cartridges that are not neutral - they want vinyl to sound different than digital, so therefore they choose a cartridge with a specific flavour that they like - after having tried cartridges that were either too "harsh" or too "dull" sounding or whatever.

Anyway, besides finding measurements online, what I've done with cartridges I've had in my possession has been to record a song from a record that I know to have been cut flat from the CD master and then compare the CD-rip with the recording of the vinyl record with the plugin Voxengo CurveEQ, which shows the difference in EQ between the two, which means it draws a line, which will be the frequency response of the cartridge.

The records I've used for this are:
* Type O Negative "October Rust"
* Living Colour "Stain"
* Iron Maiden "Fear of the dark" and "Brave new world". "No prayer for the dying" should also be okay, although I haven't tried with that album.
* Aerosmith "Get a grip"
* Ghost "If you have ghosts" EP
* Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" (original CD from 1985)
Many other records are also cut flat from the CD master, so you can easily find another record to do this.

As you might know, the frequency response of MM cartridges changes with the amount of capacitance, while MC cartridges seem to be immune to this, but MCs can be sensitive to the amount of ohms that you load them with, although testing this with an Audio Technica AT33PTG/II showed that this particular cartridge didn't change its frequency response when I changed the ohm load anywhere from 75 to 1000 ohms.

Anyway, the most neutral phono cartridge I have ever come across has been the Nagaoka MP-500, which is an MM cartridge.
This is the chart I made (the phono preamp was an NAD PP-4). The steep increase at the lowest frequencies is simply rumble, which is the case with all the pictures in this post:

View attachment 129721


I actually preferred the sound of the slightly less neutral Goldring Elite, so when I had them both on trial I ended up buying that one instead, as the slight spike around 10 kHz on the Goldring gives the music a nice sparkle. Please ignore the drastic increase at the very highest frequencies. I don't know exactly why this showed up:

View attachment 129724


Two other very neutral cartridges that I haven't tried myself are:

The Dynavector - DV XX2 mk2 (measured by Hifi Critic):
View attachment 129726

And the Hana EL and Hana EH (EL is low output, EH is high output):

View attachment 129727


Just for comparisons sake, here' the Hana SH (shibata, high output), which I tried out:

View attachment 129728


Eventually, I replaced my Goldring Elite with an Audio Technica AT33PTG/II, which is even less accurate, but something just didn't sound right with the Goldring Elite. It could have been distortion. The Audio Technicas are known for being some of the best trackers on the market, although I haven't examined this myself. Here's its chart - not so noticeable is a very slight dip in the harshness region:

View attachment 129725


Just to compare, here's my other current cartridge, the Audio Technica VM750SH with NAD PP-4 phono preamp:

View attachment 129729

With my new Mofi Studiophono preamp it looks slightly different, which I think is due to less capacitance in the Mofi, as it seems that the higher capacitance in the NAD pushes down the harshness region slightly, increases the big spike a bit, and also pushes down the very highest frequencies (the roll-off after the spike) a bit. Although it's not a big audible difference, I did pass an ABX test with the two different phono preamps:

View attachment 129730


Although the VM750SH is an MM cartridge, many MC cartridges have frequency responses with big spikes around 10-15 kHz like the charts above.
And also for comparisons sake, here's the cartridge I had a few years ago, a Rega Exact (MM):

View attachment 129731


Despite the uneven curve, this frequency response made many bright records sound really nice.

Then, here's the much-loved Denon 103:

View attachment 129732


And a cheap Audio Technica AT-VM95E (there are many different types of AT-95 with different letter combinations at the end, depending on the stylus tip):

View attachment 129743


Then, just to finish off, Lyra cartridges are some of the most expensive cartridges on the market, and some people consider them some of the finest cartridges money can buy.
Here are a few charts:

Lyra Dorian (measured by TNT audio). Notice both the boost in bass, slight dip in the harshness region as well as the obvious increase in the highest frequencies (the drop-off might be due to the test record):

View attachment 129738


Lyra Delos (the replacement for the Dorian):

View attachment 129739


Lyra ETNA SL (measured by Hi-Fi News):

View attachment 129740


Lyra Atlas, their most expensive model (measured by Stereoplay):

View attachment 129741

It looks like you have done a lot of homework on cartridge FR and I think you have nailed the OP’s inquiry. For my two cents, all the cumulative nonlinearities of the LP format itself (the pressing, the cartridge, tonearm, speed control, hole eccentricity, isolation, preamp, yada yada … ) make “neutrality” a fanciful dream. So, it’s probably best to simply avoid the highly nonlinear components and choose ones that sound best to you. All the cartridge designs are compromised in one way or another.

I know that position is not fully an “objective” perspective, but as Amir has pointed out, the LP format is “flawed”. If I want maximally neutral reproduction, I go for digital. Otherwise, I go for a vinyl rig that simply sounds good to me, using reasonable electro-mechanical principles.

 

[board]

It looks like you have done a lot of homework on cartridge FR and I think you have nailed the OP’s inquiry. For my two cents, all the cumulative nonlinearities of the LP format itself (the pressing, the cartridge, tonearm, speed control, hole eccentricity, isolation, preamp, yada yada … ) make “neutrality” a fanciful dream. So, it’s probably best to simply avoid the highly nonlinear components and choose ones that sound best to you. All the cartridge designs are compromised in one way or another.

I know that position is not fully an “objective” perspective, but as Amir has pointed out, the LP format is “flawed”. If I want maximally neutral reproduction, I go for digital. Otherwise, I go for a vinyl rig that simply sounds good to me, using reasonable electro-mechanical principles.

When buying the Goldring Elite my goal was to get a pretty accurate cartridge. In the end, I opted for the slightly less accurate (at least for frequency response) AT33PTG/II, as I simply liked it more.
Although I find transparency an admirable goal to achieve, then I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would torture themselves with something that sounds horrible but accurate if they could instead get something that's less accurate but more pleasant to listen to.
And hardcore objectivists do choose "less accurate" at times as well, when they buy remastered albums rather than the original editions. The original might have been what the artist intended, but what if the artist was a moron, and a mastering engineer could make the listeners happier? Certain things simply sound "objectively" better, and some frequencies are much more pleasant than others.
I've remastered a lot of music, and the people who have listened to my amaaaaaaazing remasters have often been applauding my very, very "inaccurate" work.

As for neutrality in phono cartridges, just a few hours ago I was comparing the album "Invincible" by Michael Jackson on vinyl and CD, and it didn't seem to come from the same master, as the following chart shows the difference (the vinyl edition boosts the bass a bit and rolls off at the very top), yet they sounded essentially indistinguishable to me (I can send the sound clips for anyone interested), so I find that our ears are often (but not always) very, very forgiving.

 

[Newman]

what I've done with cartridges I've had in my possession has been to record a song from a record that I know to have been cut flat from the CD master and then compare the CD-rip with the recording of the vinyl record with the plugin Voxengo CurveEQ, which shows the difference in EQ between the two, which means it draws a line, which will be the frequency response of the cartridge.

The records I've used for this are:
* Type O Negative "October Rust"
* Living Colour "Stain"
* Iron Maiden "Fear of the dark" and "Brave new world". "No prayer for the dying" should also be okay, although I haven't tried with that album.
* Aerosmith "Get a grip"
* Ghost "If you have ghosts" EP
* Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" (original CD from 1985)
Many other records are also cut flat from the CD master, so you can easily find another record to do this.

Interesting. How do you know this for sure?

I ask because it seems curious to me, how you could get over 25 minutes of Side A Brothers In Arms onto LP without any bass rolloff. Cut it at a very low level?

 

[board]

Interesting. How do you know this for sure?

I ask because it seems curious to me, how you could get over 25 minutes of Side A Brothers In Arms onto LP without any bass rolloff. Cut it at a very low level?

The graphs I showed from CurveEQ will show the same curve as the frequency response of your phono cartridge if it was cut flat.
To see that a record was cut from the CD master, then I record the vinyl record at at least 48 kHz sampling rate and then look at a spectogram. In the following chart you can see a hard cut-off around 20 kHz, which shows that it must have been cut from the CD (this recording is of Crowded House):

As for "Brothers in Arms", then it's possible that they either cut it at very low volume, or that they rolled off the bass, so my method here is not always 100 % accurate. I actually don't have the original "Brothers in arms" CD, but I have the 2014 SHM edition, but as far as I know that edition is the original recording, which was a native digital 16/44.1 kHz recording, transferred to analogue tape and then digitized again. A very light bass roll-off is visible before the rumble starts, and the "wobbles" in the frequency response might be due to the transfer to analogue tape, or because the speed of the two files is not completely identical (doing a time-stretch would straighten some of these wobbles out):

The bass roll-off (and high-frequency roll-off) is more visible in this recording I made of a Mastodon record:

Dire Straits' album "On every street" was definitely cut at a very low volume-level on vinyl.

 

[DSJR]

I have the original Brothers in Arms vinyl and first CD 'UK' issue. Tracks are extended on the CD and more importantly, the channels are reversed on the CD compared to the vinyl. They surely fixed that subsequently but it's not a record I've played in a very long time I have to say...

 

[watchnerd]

Not sure when I am going to have time for sweeps. I have a lot of music I need to 'test' now.

View attachment 107479
I downloaded Anaconda to compile @scott wurcer 's Python code. I will definitely want to measure when the 'wandering Puffin' arrives.

To my ears, this is the biggest component upgrade since I went from the AT 95EB to the AT 440MLb about 5 years ago. Incidentally, I need to bring up Wishbone Ash and Martin Birch's sound engineering in The why Michael Jackson sounds better thread.

What are your thoughts on this guy now that you've had it for a while?

It must be well past 'break in' by now...

 

[Helicopter]

What are your thoughts on this guy now that you've had it for a while?

It must be well past 'break in' by now...

It certainly has the capability for hifi and for a test rig. It likely has the capability for some sort of standard test rig via its digital output, though you would want the fiber output for that. I have never had a ground loop with it, but it seems like a good thing to eliminate anyway.

I have not had the patience or skill to make my own chart with the code and compiler, and the test records are a huge problem. These are what have kept me from ripping sine sweeps and posting charts with a bunch or cartridges... but maybe I should just try it with CBS record and get some more data out there. I have been traveling for a few weeks, but I will be home tomorrow, so maybe I can do something this weekend.

I don't really need the Puffin for this, but it seems like it should give better results than my phono stages.

I am still toying with maybe getting an audio interface with digital inputs like 8i6 or UCXII, maybe getting a Puffin with optical out, and also thinking about some of the other AT carts.

Overall, the Puffin is really cool, with its DSP.

 

[watchnerd]

It certainly has the capability for hifi and for a test rig. It likely has the capability for some sort of standard test rig via its digital output, though you would want the fiber output for that. I have never had a ground loop with it, but it seems like a good thing to eliminate anyway.

I have not had the patience or skill to make my own chart with the code and compiler, and the test records are a huge problem. These are what have kept me from ripping sine sweeps and posting charts with a bunch or cartridges... but maybe I should just try it with CBS record and get some more data out there. I have been traveling for a few weeks, but I will be home tomorrow, so maybe I can do something this weekend.

I don't really need the Puffin for this, but it seems like it should give better results than my phono stages.

I am still toying with maybe getting an audio interface with digital inputs like 8i6 or UCXII, maybe getting a Puffin with optical out, and also thinking about some of the other AT carts.

Overall, the Puffin is really cool, with its DSP.

Oh, sorry...

By "this guy", I was referring to the AT-OC9XML

 

[Helicopter]

Oh, sorry...

By "this guy", I was referring to the AT-OC9XML

Oh yes. I love it. I can hardly imagine ever going back to MM seriously, and I have sparked an interest in MC stuff. Maybe I can rip something from the records I picked up in Munich today and share. I got a couple Scorpions albums from the 70s that might be good. 70s Scorpions is super chill. Or I could do something new and great like Analog Productions something. Too bad I didn't have more time today as one store, Doc's, had a ton of classical I didn't thumb through.

 

[levimax]

and I have sparked an interest in MC stuff.

Time for a SUT then.... the best way to bring out the true magic of a MC cart

 

[watchnerd]

Time for a SUT then.... the best way to bring out the true magic of a MC cart

Meh.

I've used 2 different SUTs across multiple cartridges, including with old school SPU and very modern carts.

SUTs, in theory, should only be used for stepping up the voltage; if they're adding any "magic", it's just another form of coloration.

If I want to add coloration, it's just easier to use EQ.

The Puffin is great for EQ.