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The trouble with buying a DAC for your birthday.

sonder

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Happy birthday @sonder ! :).
What did you get yourself?
I just realized what a loaded question that was.

My wife and I often do shared birthdays, since we're two weeks apart, and we tend to do it closer to her birthday. She's very in to an interest at the minute so wanted quite a few things. A few years ago I bought a what hifi recommended setup, typical class a/b, dali bookshelfs, rega record player. Lovely setup in the 6x6 lounge. Then we moved house, twice in 2 years, and the setup ended up in my home office, and just sounded different / wrong. Thus, on the 4th March I read an article how "a DAC should be what you buy this year to improve your sound", obviously that'll fix it!

4-5th March. I read all about DACs and wound up here. I bought the Topping E30II with RCA out for my amp, since we share birthday's you know I'll get something early.

6th March, E30II delivered. I had two Chromecast Audio's, so I put one RCA in to amp, one optical in to the DAC, grouped the players, sent audio to both from Tidal, well the DAC sounded much better, but it hasn't solved the problem, so I must need a new amp, because I know the speakers sounded great before. Read more, buy a Topping PA3S, since it's got a good SINAD too you know, and it is my/our birthday after all!

Listen to everything again phase ensues, I wonder if there's a way to ensure lossless audio, just to make sure I'm getting the most from my dac, discover roon, wire in tidal to it and cast to the CCA, that seems to sound better again, but still not right, just cleaner, and heck am I discovering more music.

8th March, PA3S delivered, it's so small, but sounds so much "cleaner" than the a/b, lots of listening tests between the two. I know this sounds cleaner, but now my Dali's are even brighter, I always wondered why people said they were a bit bright as I read about them over the previous few days, now I understand.

Perhaps the issue is the optical connection, I should try using the USB of the DAC from my PC instead, subjectively that seems better, add in qobuz and try the lossless instead of MQA, well that seems marginally better, and I'm quite technical in nature, so if I can shoot raw or get lossless anything, I'm going to do that instead. More reading, looks like the E30II has some issues with optical, that must have been what it was. I can't leave my DAC & AMP in the middle of the floor thought can I? I must need a roon core or server here ... more reading. I can re-purpose a mini pc!

10th March, order Mini PC Bee-link T4 as an experiment, after all it is my birthday (and cables + adapter of course).

11th march, install ubuntu server and roon server on the T4, move everything back in to place, USB from T4 to E30II, RCA to PA3S. Happy ears, sounds so clean, but still wrong / bright. Annoying this is I can now hear the fan on the mini PC, so I'll rip that out, there's no load really so it'll run fine and cool, easily solved.

14-16th March, wife's birthday, focus on her, but lots of listening to everything again, we buy her some more bits for her hobby, you know since now I've bought a DAC a new amp and a streaming server.

Reading ensues, I have to understand why this sounds better but still wrong, the rabbit hole is firmly being entered now. It must be the speakers, by the 18th of march I'd decided that it was the limited space I could place the Dali's in, close to the "wall" and no way of getting away from that, so I must need front ported speakers.

18th March, it's decided, I need Triangle Borea BR03s, I explain to my wife how the proximity to the wall on the rear ported Dali's is cancelling out specific frequencies in the high bass to mid range, play her favourite kate bush song and she agrees it sounds wrong and is just bored of me being technical, so I pull the trigger on the front ported Triangle's, because you know she got an extra something and it is my birthday fast approaching now, so you know speakers to finish off my new setup for my birthday ...

19th March, lots of measuring, well the tweeter will be below ear level so that won't do, wife will not understand but she may roll with it, new speakers are white though and my stands are black, darling... of course you've guessed, it, Atacama Moseco 7 speaker stands at the optimal height ordered, it is one's birthday after all.

Let's not forget the wiring though, by now I'm firmly down the rabbit hole (or so I thought), final touch is the wiring, let's get rid of these silver coated speaker wires and get some thick 4mm2 pure copper with some new banana's and get this properly sorted.

We're now approaching every minute of work listening to audio not music and thinking about this, every non work hour reading and learning. Triangle's arrive, cables assembled, wow, they sound amazing, everyone agrees the new setup is so much better than the old one, (which is now in a large dining room for vinyl).

Trouble is, when I crank the volume on bass rich songs with some vocals or midrange in there, there's a bit of distortion. Clearly the PA3S isn't powerful enough for the 100W min impedance 4.2ohm Triangle's. I'm now at reading scientific papers and doing complex equation levels to work things out, actively engaging here. Fast forward to the 29th March 2 days before my birthday, so I'm pulling the trigger on a hand made Hypex Core NC252MP via Stefan at KJR Audio to resolve the power issue, it is my birthday you know.

Issue though, the triangle's are max 100W, the hypex is 1.66 VRMS in, the DAC is 2vrms out, I'm going to blow my speakers if volume resets, I need a firewall in the middle, so now I'm reading about potentiometers and attenuation, balanced connections, 10k vs 50k pots, ladder relay attenuators and all that goodness. I clearly can't blow my speakers up if there's a power cut through the night and I don't notice, so I need a 10k ALPS RK271 RCA to RCA passive amp in the middle so order one (blah birthday blah, wife has lost hope).

But what's this hiss I can hear with -80db playing or no signal and the PA3S at full "volume". It has to be the unbalanced RCA connections, I'll need to explore balanced connections, so I'll order another passive amp which does XLR->XLR and RCA->RCA with 256 steps through a relay resistor system, (birthday!), that'll take 2 weeks to come though and I need to work this out because it's consuming me, so I'll order an NS-05P which does rca/xlr to xlr/rca (birthday!), and I'll need the wires for the new setup (neutrik quad xlr's obviously, I've read every data sheet and paper by now), oh and the wires to experiment while the amps coming (XLR->TRS to put in to the PA3S balanced).

Birthday arrives, next day I'm playing with the what's this hiss via different wiring, rca to rca, it's present, rca to xlr it doubles (oh no), xlr to xlr, dissapears, completely black/silent backdrop. That's clearly what we need after spending all this time and money.

Issue, the E30II DAC is only RCA (cos who needs XLR right), so now we're celebrating my birthday the day after since it's a saturday, and well I just need an e70 fully balanced DAC for this new setup, and everybody's being nice because it's my birthday, so I'm ordering the E70 and the wife's asking why but half way through explaining that the total residual noise at -20 dB will be the square root of (2.85819^2 + 50^2) = 50.0816 uV if I move to XLR and she's zoned out and appeased with some fancy korean nail polishes.

So, that's what I got for my birthday, but in about a week I'm going to have the E70 -> Relay Resistor Passive Amp / Attenuator -> NC252MP -> Triangle Borea's, and perhaps realise that passive is balanced and not fully balanced or that when I crank the volume on bass rich songs with some vocals or midrange in there, there's a bit of distortion is down to the triangle's, and I'll be plugging the ports and getting sub's or needing new speakers without any excuse.

Here we are at exactly 28 days into this rabbit hole, and the birthday excuse fully exhausted, help (but don't).
 
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Zensō

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82CFF3A8-E182-4962-9547-906C145BE424.jpeg


Happy Birthday!
 

LTig

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OMG, what a story. OTOH many here could tell similar stories but you at least did it in the shortest time ever - worth an entry into the Guiness book of world records.:cool:
 

PeterOo

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My post was meant to bring some lightness to the other thread (search 2.2uF). I did not imagine it would stir up this much trauma:oops:
Good to hear you made some big steps down the slippery slope towards audio nirvana.
 

bodhi

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OMG, what a story. OTOH many here could tell similar stories but you at least did it in the shortest time ever - worth an entry into the Guiness book of world records.:cool:
I mean I only spent thousands extra for performance I don't use. But that is completely reasonable behavior: who knows when you have to suddenly move into a huge mansion. I would feel stupid with less powerful systems!

:p
 

Zensō

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I just realized what a loaded question that was.

My wife and I often do shared birthdays, since we're two weeks apart, and we tend to do it closer to her birthday. She's very in to an interest at the minute so wanted quite a few things. A few years ago I bought a what hifi recommended setup, typical class a/b, dali bookshelfs, rega record player. Lovely setup in the 6x6 lounge. Then we moved house, twice in 2 years, and the setup ended up in my home office, and just sounded different / wrong. Thus, on the 4th March I read an article how "a DAC should be what you buy this year to improve your sound", obviously that'll fix it!

4-5th March. I read all about DACs and wound up here. I bought the Topping E30II with RCA out for my amp, since we share birthday's you know I'll get something early.

6th March, E30II delivered. I had two Chromecast Audio's, so I put one RCA in to amp, one optical in to the DAC, grouped the players, sent audio to both from Tidal, well the DAC sounded much better, but it hasn't solved the problem, so I must need a new amp, because I know the speakers sounded great before. Read more, buy a Topping PA3S, since it's got a good SINAD too you know, and it is my/our birthday after all!

Listen to everything again phase ensues, I wonder if there's a way to ensure lossless audio, just to make sure I'm getting the most from my dac, discover roon, wire in tidal to it and cast to the CCA, that seems to sound better again, but still not right, just cleaner, and heck am I discovering more music.

8th March, PA3S delivered, it's so small, but sounds so much "cleaner" than the a/b, lots of listening tests between the two. I know this sounds cleaner, but now my Dali's are even brighter, I always wondered why people said they were a bit bright as I read about them over the previous few days, now I understand.

Perhaps the issue is the optical connection, I should try using the USB of the DAC from my PC instead, subjectively that seems better, add in qobuz and try the lossless instead of MQA, well that seems marginally better, and I'm quite technical in nature, so if I can shoot raw or get lossless anything, I'm going to do that instead. More reading, looks like the E30II has some issues with optical, that must have been what it was. I can't leave my DAC & AMP in the middle of the floor thought can I? I must need a roon core or server here ... more reading. I can re-purpose a mini pc!

10th March, order Mini PC Bee-link T4 as an experiment, after all it is my birthday (and cables + adapter of course).

11th march, install ubuntu server and roon server on the T4, move everything back in to place, USB from T4 to E30II, RCA to PA3S. Happy ears, sounds so clean, but still wrong / bright. Annoying this is I can now hear the fan on the mini PC, so I'll rip that out, there's no load really so it'll run fine and cool, easily solved.

14-16th March, wife's birthday, focus on her, but lots of listening to everything again, we buy her some more bits for her hobby, you know since now I've bought a DAC a new amp and a streaming server.

Reading ensues, I have to understand why this sounds better but still wrong, the rabbit hole is firmly being entered now. It must be the speakers, by the 18th of march I'd decided that it was the limited space I could place the Dali's in, close to the "wall" and no way of getting away from that, so I must need front ported speakers.

18th March, it's decided, I need Triangle Borea BR03s, I explain to my wife how the proximity to the wall on the rear ported Dali's is cancelling out specific frequencies in the high bass to mid range, play her favourite kate bush song and she agrees it sounds wrong and is just bored of me being technical, so I pull the trigger on the front ported Triangle's, because you know she got an extra something and it is my birthday fast approaching now, so you know speakers to finish off my new setup for my birthday ...

19th March, lots of measuring, well the tweeter will be below ear level so that won't do, wife will not understand but she may roll with it, new speakers are white though and my stands are black, darling... of course you've guessed, it, Atacama Moseco 7 speaker stands at the optimal height ordered, it is one's birthday after all.

Let's not forget the wiring though, by now I'm firmly down the rabbit hole (or so I thought), final touch is the wiring, let's get rid of these silver coated speaker wires and get some thick 4mm2 pure copper with some new banana's and get this properly sorted.

We're now approaching every minute of work listening to audio not music and thinking about this, every non work hour reading and learning. Triangle's arrive, cables assembled, wow, they sound amazing, everyone agrees the new setup is so much better than the old one, (which is now in a large dining room for vinyl).

Trouble is, when I crank the volume on bass rich songs with some vocals or midrange in there, there's a bit of distortion. Clearly the PA3S isn't powerful enough for the 100W min impedance 4.2ohm Triangle's. I'm now at reading scientific papers and doing complex equation levels to work things out, actively engaging here. Fast forward to the 29th March 2 days before my birthday, so I'm pulling the trigger on a hand made Hypex Core NC252MP via Stefan at KJR Audio to resolve the power issue, it is my birthday you know.

Issue though, the triangle's are max 100W, the hypex is 1.66 VRMS in, the DAC is 2vrms out, I'm going to blow my speakers if volume resets, I need a firewall in the middle, so now I'm reading about potentiometers and attenuation, balanced connections, 10k vs 50k pots, ladder relay attenuators and all that goodness. I clearly can't blow my speakers up if there's a power cut through the night and I don't notice, so I need a 10k ALPS RK271 RCA to RCA passive amp in the middle so order one (blah birthday blah, wife has lost hope).

But what's this hiss I can hear with -80db playing or no signal and the PA3S at full "volume". It has to be the unbalanced RCA connections, I'll need to explore balanced connections, so I'll order another passive amp which does XLR->XLR and RCA->RCA with 256 steps through a relay resistor system, (birthday!), that'll take 2 weeks to come though and I need to work this out because it's consuming me, so I'll order an NS-05P which does rca/xlr to xlr/rca (birthday!), and I'll need the wires for the new setup (neutrik quad xlr's obviously, I've read every data sheet and paper by now), oh and the wires to experiment while the amps coming (XLR->TRS to put in to the PA3S balanced).

Birthday arrives, next day I'm playing with the what's this hiss via different wiring, rca to rca, it's present, rca to xlr it doubles (oh no), xlr to xlr, dissapears, completely black/silent backdrop. That's clearly what we need after spending all this time and money.

Issue, the E30II DAC is only RCA (cos who needs XLR right), so now we're celebrating my birthday the day after since it's a saturday, and well I just need an e70 fully balanced DAC for this new setup, and everybody's being nice because it's my birthday, so I'm ordering the E70 and the wife's asking why but half way through explaining that the total residual noise at -20 dB will be the square root of (2.85819^2 + 50^2) = 50.0816 uV if I move to XLR and she's zoned out and appeased with some fancy korean nail polishes.

So, that's what I got for my birthday, but in about a week I'm going to have the E70 -> Relay Resistor Passive Amp / Attenuator -> NC252MP -> Triangle Borea's, and perhaps realise that passive is balanced and not fully balanced or that when I crank the volume on bass rich songs with some vocals or midrange in there, there's a bit of distortion is down to the triangle's, and I'll be plugging the ports and getting sub's or needing new speakers without any excuse.

Here we are at exactly 28 days into this rabbit hole, and the birthday excuse fully exhausted, help (but don't).
On a more serious note, why not return all that stuff and just get an RME and a pair of Genelecs or Neumanns? Then you'll have a clean baseline to work from and if anything still sounds off you can get on with fixing your room which is most likely the culprit in the first place.
 
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sonder

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On a more serious note, why not return all that stuff and just get an RME and a pair of Genelecs or Neumanns? Then you'll have a clean baseline to work from
Honestly, I need to learn and understand it, I'm fine with buying several different setups, slotting in different passives and pot resistances, comparing everything side by side, reading and learning, it's enjoyable and sometimes the calculations just don't convey experiences, for example I tried a 50k RK27 pot earlier today compared to 2 others at 10k and 20k, and my takeaway was that it's totally the wrong resistance however I really like the precision control the log curve gives over linear + the tactile physical resistance, which I hadn't considered just looking at numbers. Extended from this, have 4x different setups in the home with varying but quite large rooms, another hifi setup in a large dining room that's more analogue focused, 2x 5.1 custom install setups that need upgraded, one with projector, the other with sony master tv, a consideration for going atmos in one room potentially, then other rooms with various wireless speakers. Understanding all the details at each step will help me make informed decisions elsewhere, hopefully without intermediary steps.

Added to this, component based approach may work better for me, we get bored often move every ~3 years in to totally different styles of homes, so may need to scale up and down considerably over time here.

RME adi I was interested in, however the genelec's are just so ugly (to me), which is a real shame, neumann's possibly.

Regarding return, I've never returned a product in my life unless it was completely broken, if I choose wrong I either give it away or sell on a market place to somebody who seems like they'd really appreciate it and just take the price burn as a learning curve / part of the experience. I'm by no means rich but earn above average, and prefer to share or gift things around to those who are not as fortunate, cos you know, they deserve it too. Ultimately I hope things improve so much that amazing audio becomes accessible to everyone, it's such a shame that it feels like a privilege, just getting the equipment and having a home that's detached and holds the sound well, I sincerely hope that the average consumer can get to 80-90% of the performance and enjoyment as standard as years progress.

fixing your room which is most likely the culprit in the first place.
Very much so, it's a horrific space and very constrained placement possibilities compared to the rest of the house, but I work from home and listen 10-14 hours a day in here, don't want to use headphones, I'll be opening the door to dirac / room analysis and configs very soon, once I've racked up a few more hours to replenish accounts.

What you should have bought first is UMIK-1. I'd be surprised if any of that busywork really changed the sound of your system all that much.
Totally agree, however on the second part it certainly has, I've got all the components at the same time and swap between them, it's considerably different, some parts change more than others of course, roon+speakers were the two big gains, the rest are smaller increments.
 
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sonder

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To add something useful, the biggest learning experience has been that there's no real substitute to just trying things, if I took everything I'd been told at face value I'd have taken many wrong turns.

For example, early on I was certain that two different DACs gave two different audio experiences, now I'm certain that if I had two identical implementations of different DAC chips (e70 ESS vs e70 AKM) I wouldn't be able to tell the difference - as for the parts around the chip, well yes I still think they can make a difference, but perhaps of little concerned to other areas where you notice an immediate change (like better speakers more suited to the particular environment).

Conversely, areas I'd been told I wouldn't notice, for example spotify at 320kbps vs qobuz lossless, well that's like the ear equivalent of going from 1080p to 4k hdr, if you can't tell the difference I'd suggest a hearing test or new audio setup.

Even today, the difference between pots was minimal, the difference between their resistances was major, I popped in an RK27 at 50k and my wife said what have you done to your setup, it's broken and sounds wrong. Integrated everything you have no choice, you don't get to see the differences design choices and component parts make to the overall experience, and they can be considerable.
 

Zensō

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Honestly, I need to learn and understand it, I'm fine with buying several different setups, slotting in different passives and pot resistances, comparing everything side by side, reading and learning, it's enjoyable and sometimes the calculations just don't convey experiences, for example I tried a 50k RK27 pot earlier today compared to 2 others at 10k and 20k, and my takeaway was that it's totally the wrong resistance however I really like the precision control the log curve gives over linear + the tactile physical resistance, which I hadn't considered just looking at numbers. Extended from this, have 4x different setups in the home with varying but quite large rooms, another hifi setup in a large dining room that's more analogue focused, 2x 5.1 custom install setups that need upgraded, one with projector, the other with sony master tv, a consideration for going atmos in one room potentially, then other rooms with various wireless speakers. Understanding all the details at each step will help me make informed decisions elsewhere, hopefully without intermediary steps.

Added to this, component based approach may work better for me, we get bored often move every ~3 years in to totally different styles of homes, so may need to scale up and down considerably over time here.

RME adi I was interested in, however the genelec's are just so ugly (to me), which is a real shame, neumann's possibly.

Regarding return, I've never returned a product in my life unless it was completely broken, if I choose wrong I either give it away or sell on a market place to somebody who seems like they'd really appreciate it and just take the price burn as a learning curve / part of the experience. I'm by no means rich but earn above average, and prefer to share or gift things around to those who are not as fortunate, cos you know, they deserve it too. Ultimately I hope things improve so much that amazing audio becomes accessible to everyone, it's such a shame that it feels like a privilege, just getting the equipment and having a home that's detached and holds the sound well, I sincerely hope that the average consumer can get to 80-90% of the performance and enjoyment as standard as years progress.


Very much so, it's a horrific space and very constrained placement possibilities compared to the rest of the house, but I work from home and listen 10-14 hours a day in here, don't want to use headphones, I'll be opening the door to dirac / room analysis and configs very soon, once I've racked up a few more hours to replenish accounts.


Totally agree, however on the second part it certainly has, I've got all the components at the same time and swap between them, it's considerably different, some parts change more than others of course, roon+speakers were the two big gains, the rest are smaller increments.
For me personally, experimenting with lots of semi-random variables is a chore more than it’s enjoyable. At this point in my life, I prefer to use proven, no fuss, pro audio equipment so I can get on with making and listening to music, which I find far more satisfying than messing around with gear (been there, done that). That said, it sounds as if you’re enjoying the learning process, so have fun and good luck!
 
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sonder

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For me personally, experimenting with lots of semi-random variables is a chore more than it’s enjoyable. At this point in my life, I prefer to use proven, no fuss, pro audio equipment so I can get on with making and listening to music, which I find far more satisfying than messing around with gear (been there, done that). That said, it sounds as if you’re enjoying the learning process, so have fun and good luck!
Likewise in most cases, occasionally something piques my interest, like this or photography, and I just need to know the inns and outs of a ducks arse, as they say in some parts of the UK
 

bodhi

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Totally agree, however on the second part it certainly has, I've got all the components at the same time and swap between them, it's considerably different, some parts change more than others of course, roon+speakers were the two big gains, the rest are smaller increments.
...and you are noticing these considerable changes sighted, without mesasurements?

Well, you do you.
 
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sonder

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...and you are noticing these considerable changes sighted, without mesasurements?

Well, you do you.
I have a feeling you didn't actually read the wall of text.

Yes, myself and everyone in the house can easily tell the difference between the two setups, as can 99% of people in the world. Otherwise this entire forum and every review would be "there's no audible difference between these products", the entire audio scene wouldn't exist if everything sounded the same and had the same audio quality.

One is Spotify 320 compressed stream via Chromecast RCA in to an entry level onkyo ab and out through rear ported dali zensor.

The other is lossless flac through roon via a modern dac in to a good class d and out through front ported triangle borea.

Of course it sounds audibly different.

This is why there are a range of different products made and purchased, because they sound different, better, worse.
 

JayGilb

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I have a feeling you didn't actually read the wall of text.

Yes, myself and everyone in the house can easily tell the difference between the two setups, as can 99% of people in the world. Otherwise this entire forum and every review would be "there's no audible difference between these products", the entire audio scene wouldn't exist if everything sounded the same and had the same audio quality.

One is Spotify 320 compressed stream via Chromecast RCA in to an entry level onkyo ab and out through rear ported dali zensor.

The other is lossless flac through roon via a modern dac in to a good class d and out through front ported triangle borea.

Of course it sounds audibly different.

This is why there are a range of different products made and purchased, because they sound different, better, worse.
We all read your walls of text and I'm glad it was therapeutic for you. Don't forget to return your shopping cart back to the designated stall.
 
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