The most important parameter of all: overall system integrity

[RayDunzl]

Will TDR do this for a single conductor, in free space?

Will a single conductor in free space provide any useful purpose?

It would be expensive to test...

"Ok, turn it on."
"Turn what on? It's a frigging wire."
"The test set."
"Oh. Did we bring it?""

 

[Don Hills]

As Ray pointed out, a single wire in free space has its uses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tether_missions

 

[March Audio]

Will TDR do this for a single conductor, in free space?

The circuit isnt a wire in free space, whats the reason or logic behind the question?

 

[fas42]

Lucky last from Roger, at the end of his grounding journey,

Of course, this clip gives me absolutely no idea - it could sound hideous, or fabulous in the flesh - microphones are quite useless as a means of recording sound in a particular space ...

 

[fas42]

The circuit isnt a wire in free space, whats the reason or logic behind the question?

Well, I thought the intent of the question was fairly clear - I hook a lengthy piece of wire to the chassis, and then take some care to space the wire from any electrically active surfaces along its path - no lying it on a ground plane, IOW. What is the impedance at RF frequencies?

 

[Don Hills]

How long is a piece of string?
The impedance depends on everything - the length of the wire, its diameter, its distance from the rest of the circuit and ground planes etc, the path the wire takes, and the frequency of interest. It's all random in Roger's case.

 

[March Audio]

Well, I thought the intent of the question was fairly clear - I hook a lengthy piece of wire to the chassis, and then take some care to space the wire from any electrically active surfaces along its path - no lying it on a ground plane, IOW. What is the impedance at RF frequencies?

As Don says above it depends on everything. RF simply doesnt behave in the simple intuitive way you are trying to distill it down to, hence my previous reply.

 

[March Audio]

Lucky last from Roger, at the end of his grounding journey,

Of course, this clip gives me absolutely no idea - it could sound hideous, or fabulous in the flesh - microphones are quite useless as a means of recording sound in a particular space ...

You really dont hear the reverberation of the room or the cuppy skewed tonality do you? It sounds shit.

It sounds just like someone put a mic in the middle of the room and nothing like hearing it in person.

Microphones set up in this way are totally useless for assessing system quality. I could record a transistor radio in this way and you would waffle on about the wonderful system integrity, how the speakers disapear......

 

[fas42]

How long is a piece of string?
The impedance depends on everything - the length of the wire, its diameter, its distance from the rest of the circuit and ground planes etc, the path the wire takes, and the frequency of interest. It's all random in Roger's case.

Ummm, the intention is to ensure that the grounding points are very close in voltage at as large a range of frequencies as possible, at all times ... something they call a "grounding plane" in some circuits. Now, I could fashion a sheet of copper say 3 feet wide between those grounding points - but something a little less extreme might just help a little bit ...

 

[fas42]

It sounds just like someone put a mic in the middle of the room and nothing like hearing it in person.

Microphones set up in this way are totally useless for assessing system quality. I could record a transistor radio in this way and you would waffle on about the wonderful system integrity, how the speakers disapear......

IOW, if you had a microphone set up like this, with a real person singing, you would be lucky to pick up whether it wasn't a dog howling ... it's amazing that people believe that microphones actually manage to pick up recognisable sound.

 

[March Audio]

IOW, if you had a microphone set up like this, with a real person singing, you would be lucky to pick up whether it wasn't a dog howling ... it's amazing that people believe that microphones actually manage to pick up recognisable sound.

You still havent understood, despite our conversations about microphone set up, why this technique is useless. Even though the breifest of listens should be enough to tell you it is.

When recording a real person singing you dont just put an omni in the middle of the room. I could go into to further detail, but you are clearly being willfully ignorant or you really cant hear the the difference between the crap recording on youtube and lustening to the hifi in person.

Either way its pointless talking to you Frank, you are off with the fairies.

 

[fas42]

When recording a real person singing you dont just put an omni in the middle of the room. I could go into to further detail, but you are clearly being willfully ignorant or you really cant hear the the difference between the crap recording on youtube and lustening to the hifi in person..

A little thought experiment: you put a real singer in the room, use the best distance miking technique to pick up her singing; put a professional recording of that person, close miked, through any old, half reasonable system playback, placed in the room at a comparable distance, and use the same distance miking technique on that playback. And put both recordings on YouTube - would nobody, everybody, or somewhere in between pick the real from fake?

 

[March Audio]

Stop it Frank, you are now erroneously changing the parameters.

Your original situation was to take a recording performed elsewhere, replay and record it in a room with an omni mic. This sounds nothing like hearing the hifi in person in that room. Your youtube clips prove this.

Whats is the purpose of your latest twist?

You still havent got it, have you? Your latest scenereo is recording something in that room twice and making a comparison between the two recordings. Neither will sound the same as listening in person to the singer in the room.

 

[fas42]

You still havent got it, have you? Your latest scenereo is recording something in that room twice and making a comparison between the two recordings. Neither will sound the same as listening in person to the singer in the room.

There are plenty of YouTube clips where the sound is obviously not a capture of live, acoustic sound, but rather a hifi system. And in this comparison the intention is not to have the YouTube clip sounding like "you're there"; rather is there something obvious in the quality, a telltale signature that the sound in that room is coming from an audio system?

Movies and TV shows production knows the importance of this - they deliberately make the quality of something supposedly coming from a radio or audio rig, that's part of the plot, sound 'peculiar' in some manner, so the viewers get that it's meant to be 'fake' sound - what if there is no giveaway, even if one tries hard to pick it?

 

[March Audio]

Omg, this is comical.

So it's not supposed to sound like your there..........so it's not supposed to sound like the hifi you are trying to assess.

So tell me Frank what tell tales are you looking for
? How do you discriminate between the real hifi sound and thAt of the recording and room? When you can't hear any of them properly?

Frank this is delusional. You have no ability to tell an average hifi from an excellent one via,this method.

Would you like me to put you to the test with some in room recordings?

 

[Thomas savage]

This has gone beyond the pale, two things ..,

1. Frank, these thought excises of yours don't adhere to any known logic or knowledge base so they really don't belong here.

1. Be718 , if there's so little worth in what frank says why keep prompting and encouraging Him by engaging in this fashion ( rhetorical) . I'd suggest your getting perverse pleasure out of ( in you eyes)by belittling him, trying to assert your superiority maybe? That's ok but if you think so little of Frank then where's the value really?

Either way we end up with pages of worthless content that reflects poorly on all concerned . Im going to take a rare opportunity to be optimistic and suggest you both have better things to do..

 

[March Audio]

Thomas the problem is that he still posts delusional crap whether he is ignored or not. This is regardless of how many times you and Amir have moderated him.

The content of a couple of these threads has been useful in many respects. Why and how mics don't sound like hearing and the behaviour of RF for example.

If Frank doesn't take any of this on board don't look at me. I suggest you moderate the problems like FAS and Mivera otherwise this turns into WBF or the such like......and thats the main reason I respond, to counter the total misinformed crap which dominates other audio forums.

However Fas, as is Mivera, are now on ignore. They are a waste of time.

 

[Thomas savage]

Thomas the problem is that he still posts delusional crap whether he is ignored or not. This is regardless of how many times you and Amir have moderated him.

The content of a couple of these threads has been useful in many respects. Why and how mics don't sound like hearing and the behaviour of RF for example.

If Frank doesn't take any of this on board don't look at me. I suggest you moderate the problems like FAS and Mivera otherwise this turns into WBF or the such like......and thats the main reason I respond, to counter the total misinformed crap which dominates other audio forums.

However Fas, as is Mivera, are now on ignore. They are a waste of time.

This is franks thread, it's not a serious thread in technical terms in fact it's a little inane imo but it's because of this that Iv let frank continue in here. Tbh I would not expect any of you to waste your time in this kind of thread anyway.

However, we as a forum do need ideas to discuss, theories to challenge etc I guess it's up to members to realise when it's a good time to disengage with a conversation. We all know Frank, you know what your going to get back so..

I'm glad you put them both on ignore, I understand and appreciate your trying to right the many wrongs you feel they spread.

 

[fas42]

The walls of Jericho are falling ... Mike Lavigne on the WBF forum was one of the most ardent holdouts against digital playback until very recently - and was being pushed by some to admit that he may have been "wrong" about analogue being superior - but was still holding out against such a "strong" statement.

However, in the latest chapter, in a new thread he's started called "why tweak" he has discovered the value, and power of tweaking of even the "best" digital components - and is discovering how expansive the "promised land" of sound from this source can be. This is satisfying to see, because it will motivate others to try similar exercises - and things move forward, yet again.

 

[watchnerd]

The walls of Jericho are falling ... Mike Lavigne on the WBF forum was one of the most ardent holdouts against digital playback until very recently - and was being pushed by some to admit that he may have been "wrong" about analogue being superior - but was still holding out against such a "strong" statement.

However, in the latest chapter, in a new thread he's started called "why tweak" he has discovered the value, and power of tweaking of even the "best" digital components - and is discovering how expansive the "promised land" of sound from this source can be. This is satisfying to see, because it will motivate others to try similar exercises - and things move forward, yet again.

So some random dude on some internet forum has an anecdotal impression of what he thinks he heard?

Why is this so noteworthy?