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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Killingbeans

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That's a harsh reception everyone. Is that how you always greet people?

Fair enough.

Welcome @martinw72 Sorry for the bile, and have a go at this thread ;):


I don't think the post was about binary values so much as transistion timing, because he says:

Alright... So, just the age old FUD about jitter?
 

Doodski

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Everyone says that jitter is a solved problem - and it should be solved - but I've yet to see anything with HDMI measure like a good stereo DAC.
Interesting. I have only viewed digital waveforms in the gamut of PIC microcontrollers, CD, DAT, DVD and DAC circuitry. All of them operated without issue regarding indecisiveness of waveform edge detection.
 

SIY

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Everyone says that jitter is a solved problem - and it should be solved - but I've yet to see anything with HDMI measure like a good stereo DAC.
On an audible basis, yes. I can measure jitter to picoseconds, but it takes about a thousand times more to reach the level of audibility.
 

solderdude

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Everyone says that jitter is a solved problem - and it should be solved - but I've yet to see anything with HDMI measure like a good stereo DAC.
audibility threshold.

HDMI is more for video related entertainment where video is the more important aspect.
 

ahofer

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Think of it like tasting wine. At first it's hard to tell whether it's red or white when you're blindfolded. But the longer you study wine, the more you learn to recognise the differences and eventually you get to the point where you can really tell the grapes from which the wine is made very reliably.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard this analogy. Different wines differ chemically, which is trivial to measure, and quite material in perceptibility (ie well above our tasting ability's detection thresholds). Measurable DAC diffrerences tend to be well below our hearing thresholds. There's a listening test here on the site of a signal put through an ADC-DAC loop eight times and compared with the original. Have you taken it? I think you are flying directly into the face of a mountain of contrary evidence with these assertions.
 

DLS79

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Everyone says that jitter is a solved problem - and it should be solved - but I've yet to see anything with HDMI measure like a good stereo DAC.

It has been solved, but that doesn't mean tv manufactures will spend the extra couple of dollars to implement it.
 

BDWoody

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I can’t wait to see where this goes! :eek:

It can be hard for it not to feel a bit like this I'm sure.

b1d7dnuzthla1.gif
 

welwynnick

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It has been solved, but that doesn't mean tv manufactures will spend the extra couple of dollars to implement it.
I was thinking of AV Receivers rather than TV's.
 

SIY

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It has been solved, but that doesn't mean tv manufactures will spend the extra couple of dollars to implement it.
Their chip suppliers already solved it (decades ago), it's already built into the cheap chips they buy, so zero differential cost. And indeed, the jitter is vastly less than it needs to be for audible purpose.
 

AdamG

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Their chip suppliers already solved it (decades ago), it's already built into the cheap chips they buy, so zero differential cost. And indeed, the jitter is vastly less than it needs to be for audible purpose.
That has never stopped shady Vendors from making claims of Vast and Substantial improvements that even a seasoned veteran can hear. Never let the facts get in the way of Profits. :rolleyes:
 

DLS79

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Their chip suppliers already solved it (decades ago), it's already built into the cheap chips they buy, so zero differential cost. And indeed, the jitter is vastly less than it needs to be for audible purpose.

Just because an ICs can do it, doesn't mean the manufactures have configured it to do so, or added any auxiliary circuits needed to make sure it work as well as it possibly can.

The ESS hump is a good example imo.

 

welwynnick

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Yes, yes, yes to all of those things, but there is nothing at any price with HDMI input that will match even the $70 E1DA thumb drive.

Yes HDMI is an AV interface, but it supports high resolution multi channel audio, and I keep hearing how receivers are transparent, and there's no need to use off board DACs.
 
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antcollinet

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Hi everyone

I like this kind of discussion. It shows how important it is to have a discussion about tuning and optimisation. The interesting thing here is that 99% of what is discussed is true, even if there are opposiing opinions.
Do you hear differences between an audiophile network switch and a cheap switch for home networks. Yes and no, for two reasons. Firstly, because you want to hear it, especially if you're about to swap a $100 switch for a $5000 switch.
Secondly, because you listen to music for a very long time with good hi-fi chains and compare them again and again. It's easy to explain, and it works like any kind of training. You get better.
Think of it like tasting wine. At first it's hard to tell whether it's red or white when you're blindfolded. But the longer you study wine, the more you learn to recognise the differences and eventually you get to the point where you can really tell the grapes from which the wine is made very reliably.

However, it is easy to explain why the chain does play a role for some people. The cause of all this evil is the conversion from digital to analogue. If we could hear digitally, i.e. translate the zeros and ones in our head, then our head would be the D/A converter and would decide on the quality we hear.
But that is not the case. We listen to analogue and the DA converter in our music system decides what we hear. And like all components, a DA converter does not exhibit perfect behaviour. There are effects such as ringing, noise,... The digital signal is also not a perfect rectangle (voltage off = digital 1 and no voltage on = 0), but at least rounded at the corners and the edges have an angle that deviates from 90 degrees (the perfect rectangle).
Without going into too much detail, the DA converter must recognise when the zero becomes a one. Since the edges are not completely vertical and there is also analogue noise superimposed on the digital signal. The edges are not always recognised at exactly the same time. This sometimes throws the DA converter off course and leads to a tone sequence (frequency response) consisting not only of the digital signal, but also being influenced to some extent by dirt in the digital signal. There are of course many tricks to keep the signal as clean as possible. For example, by rebuilding the signal and removing dirt from it again before DA conversion, but even then mistakes happen. Depending on what the dirt looks like, you will hear it more or less, depending on the chain, the time of day, the number of interfering signals, mobile phones, WLAN and of course the listener!
Finally, a particularly "nasty" source of errors in DA conversion. Direct current, as used for PoE (Power over Ethernet), i.e. power supply via the mains. If a direct current component now reaches the DA converter, this shifts the edge detection (transition from 0 to 1) and the analogue music signal suffers particularly badly as a result.
I'm already looking forward to your replies.
None of the effects you describe are an audible issue for modern DACs

And we see that over and over again in the measuremnts - noise and distortion (including distortion from jitter) well below the level of audibility

Once again - nothing to hear here. :p


(EDIT - and again - a wrong wine analogy. In the wine analogy, the wine is the music (the stuff we consume and enjoy). The gear is the bottle and glass - that we use to transport the wine to our lips - without contaminating it. :p )
 
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antcollinet

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Everyone says that jitter is a solved problem - and it should be solved - but I've yet to see anything with HDMI measure like a good stereo DAC.
But we also see over and over again, things with an HDMI connection with jitter measured below audible levels.
 

welwynnick

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But we also see over and over again, things with an HDMI connection with jitter measured below audible levels.
Yes some of them are, but they're always significantly worse than other connections. Always has been, so it doesn't sound like a problem that's fully fixed.

If it really was fixed, every megabuck AVP would measure like a cheap thumb drive.
 

bodhi

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Yes some of them are, but they're always significantly worse than other connections. Always has been, so it doesn't sound like a problem that's fully fixed.

If it really was fixed, every megabuck AVP would measure like a cheap thumb drive.
Doesn't sound like a problem that needs to be fixed when nobody can hear the problem.

Anyways, seems like waste of time to ponder (again) these explanations to a phenomenon that (still) hasn't been proven to exist.
 

welwynnick

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It's measurable and clearly audible at certain levels. One can argue about what audible levels actually are, but I don't see why it's not proven to exist.
 

DLS79

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One can argue about what audible levels actually are, but I don't see why it's not proven to exist.

Not really, even Wikipedia has a concise answer with listed sources.
The threshold of hearing is generally reported in reference to the RMS sound pressure of 20 micropascals, i.e. 0 dB SPL, corresponding to a sound intensity of 0.98 pW/m2 at 1 atmosphere and 25 °C.[3] It is approximately the quietest sound a young human with undamaged hearing can detect at 1,000 Hz.[4] The threshold of hearing is frequency-dependent and it has been shown that the ear's sensitivity is best at frequencies between 2 kHz and 5 kHz,[5] where the threshold reaches as low as −9 dB SPL.[6][7][8]
 
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