No problem. I'm curious to see his response. There are arguments in favor of his position.
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High Resolution Audio: Does It Matter?
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Indeed, this is what was so sneaky about rickmurphy's debating style. There are very strong hidden implications scattered widely about his questions and his passive-aggressive debating tactics. In fact, almost everything he bothered to say was nothing more than a debating tactic, from hidden implications (like that 1116 is somehow required, insinuated in a way that allows for later denial) to his 'wrong' response to me when I pointed out one of his false-hearted debating tactics (in this case the "wrong" is a lame*** attempt at a whipsaw, also called a magicians force, in which, again, a vague statement can be played either way when challenged).
Forcing (magic) - Wikipedia
His initial writing was rife with a variety of kinds of rhetorical traps, far too many to be accidental in my opinion. He's not the only one who's been on standards committees.
I will say he writes more like a lawyer (how can I convince the jury) than a computer scientist, but that may be a learned behavior from dealing with standards, which I understand a bit too well.
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(Mods please feel free to move this OT diversion)
It depends STRONGLY on the question to be answered. For example, if I'm testing to establish a jnd (whether level, frequency response, compression artifacts, localization...), then a positive control is vital. But the positive control is something above already established thresholds and (and this is key) it is the same phenomenon we're testing. For a trivial example, if I'm testing for jnd level differences, I slip in something (say) 1dB higher in level. If that's not detected, the test (or the listener) lacks sensitivity. Any results from that run of tests with that listener are usually discarded.
Are we agreed so far?
You've been here.... what..... about 5 minutes?
Read the room.
(edited to remove profanity - I should know better than to whiskey post
)
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valerianf
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Let us take a practical example: Amazon music HD with an old avr 24 bits/192 khz dac.
I am listening music in 5.0 configuration.
The avr dsp will in any case run at 48 khz.
Because I am using a Firestick configured in DD+, the data rate is by default 16bits 44.1 khz or 48 khz by default.
I recently discovered a trick that force the firestick to send a stereo high resolution sound to the avr input.
Do I hear a difference?
Answer is yes: the sound is more detailed, as if a veil was removed.
But it is very subtle.
For sure there is no difference if it is car audio listening or earbud.
My next step will be to by an avr equipped with a 96khz capable dsp.
They are not so many on the market.
I am listening music in 5.0 configuration.
The avr dsp will in any case run at 48 khz.
Because I am using a Firestick configured in DD+, the data rate is by default 16bits 44.1 khz or 48 khz by default.
I recently discovered a trick that force the firestick to send a stereo high resolution sound to the avr input.
Do I hear a difference?
Answer is yes: the sound is more detailed, as if a veil was removed.
But it is very subtle.
For sure there is no difference if it is car audio listening or earbud.
My next step will be to by an avr equipped with a 96khz capable dsp.
They are not so many on the market.
OK, so we agree so far.Absolutely. The key is the italic text. It is easy to make a bad control. Say, use 4 bit PCM piano music as the control.
Now, suppose the question to be answered is, "Can Audiophile Cletus hear the difference between copper and silver wire that he claims he can?" Now, putting aside the issue of positive controls, that's an easy experiment (conceptually) to run- Cletus says he hears in on his Diana Krall LPs in his home system, "...clear as day. You'd have to be deaf to miss it!" We swap copper and silver randomly and see if he can identify or sort or however you structure a DBT.
What's the valid positive control? Materials? No-one has demonstrated that they can hear the difference between copper interconnects and a potato (an actual test someone ran!). Level? You're not testing for level so sensitivity to one variable is no indication of sensitivity to another variable. EQ? Ditto. Whatever positive control you choose is going to be a different phenomenon.
So I would argue that this is an example of a valid test to answer a specific question where a positive control is both unneeded and impossible.
I will agree that there is no possible control for some tests.
On the other hand, of course, the approach then is to measure the actual differences, by capturing both at 24/96, say, time aligning, taking the difference, and then increasing the gain on the difference until it IS audible.
Of course, we know where that leads.
And, since nothing will satisfy Cletus, there was no point to the test
in the first place!
Interestingly, doubling the sampling rate more than doubles the calculation rate, it is most likely to quadruple it, and introduce new arithmetic requirements. But perhaps that's for another thread on "how to build filters".
Galliardist
Major Contributor
Interesting logic. What you've done here, is change the place where the conversion from 96/24 to 48/24 takes place. You aren't suddenly hearing the 96/24 file. So, assuming that the difference exists in the sound waves - and that, as we know here, is not a given, since you don't report a blinded test - all you can have shown is that the conversion in the Firestick is not as good as the conversion in the AVR.
You haven't heard the 96/24 file unconverted, to know if there is a difference attributable to anything in the higher bitrate file itself.
You have not demonstrated a need to chase 96/24, at least as you describe what you have done.
You could also test by using 96/24 and 48/24 with DSP turned off, blind - use a computer with appropriate software to blind the test - and see if you still hear veils lifted. The general feeling around here, at least, is that you won't.
valerianf
Addicted to Fun and Learning
@Galliardist
There is something that I do not know: what source file the Firestick is going to pick-up from the Amazon server.
One is stereo16 bits/44.1 khz and the other is stereos/96khz.
The studio mix sound quality may be downgraded in the first case.
The DAC in the avr (Yamaha) is a Burr Brown that should be better than the one in Fire stick.
But in both case it is the Avr dac that is used.
I agree with you that at the end I need to do a test in direct mode.
Anyway I am now fully satisfied with my 5.0 music listening quality.
It was a long quest needed to reach that point: SQ of streaming music was awful at the beginning.
There is something that I do not know: what source file the Firestick is going to pick-up from the Amazon server.
One is stereo16 bits/44.1 khz and the other is stereos/96khz.
The studio mix sound quality may be downgraded in the first case.
The DAC in the avr (Yamaha) is a Burr Brown that should be better than the one in Fire stick.
But in both case it is the Avr dac that is used.
I agree with you that at the end I need to do a test in direct mode.
Anyway I am now fully satisfied with my 5.0 music listening quality.
It was a long quest needed to reach that point: SQ of streaming music was awful at the beginning.
This is an audiophile topic that never stops giving fireworks.
To me the thing is... I don't care. All hobbies have an irrationality element to them. I'll let other people enjoy their psychoacoustic personal experiences amplified by irrational choices all they want. I find it funny this topic is equally passionate about the way to optimally conduct a test that -on the other hand- everybody seems to agree is pointless.
*IF* someone were to join this discussion claiming they can hear the difference this topic is about, hey. Let's think about how to do that. But nobody openly has claimed that. It seems a somewhat sterile debate about optimal methodologies and ITU standards (when was the last time the ITU defined a universally accepted standard on something really relevant?).
I personally just laugh in private about those who claim they can hear the difference between 16/44 and 20/48 even under controlled circumstances. And if they privately enjoy it, I'll leave them live in their ivory tower, which we do in many areas of our lives. Is it worth discussing evolution with supposed Bible believers? The spherical nature of our planet with flat earthers? etc etc
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I think it was posted at diyAudio. A user there with the handle Pano ran it. IMO, he did a very good job and it was a clever idea.Oh, I'd really like to read up on this test
I was just using this as an example- it could be any kind of oddball claims (including those outside of audio like dowsing, precognition, telekinesis, whatever). Now if something mysterious gives a positive result, that's when things are interesting. Sadly, none of the mysterious stuff has ever held up to scrutiny.This is an audiophile topic that never stops giving fireworks.
A little late to this, but is there anything more tedious than a new member who comes in hot bragging about his expertise? It was just the cherry on top that he had no idea to whom he was bragging, in this case.
Anyway, I found it entertaining.
Anyway, I found it entertaining.
But they have years of experience arguing with strangers on the internet. That's got to count for something, right? Argument from argument-authority?
JP
Major Contributor
Oh, I'd really like to read up on this test
Fancy Interconnects? How about a potato, or even mud?
OK, we've all heard or read the sales pitch for interconnects of fancy materials and geometries, I've got them all beat. Did you know that you can pass a line level audio signal thru a banana? How about a sweet potato or even a bucket of mud? You can, quite easily. No joke, it really works...
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