GoldenSounds passes apparently ABX test for DACs (NOT Really)

[Geert]

Concluding that there must have been tells/cheating simply because the vast majority (except Cameron and Sharur ?) cannot hear differences/pass the ABX is not really scientific

When you look at the ABX test done by Sharur you see him constantly repeating a small fragment of the track where he could observe a difference. Let him do the test by switching at random points when playing the full track and he'll probably fail. For me, that technique of identity a difference is a variation of using a tell.

Can someone, versed with DW, post the (audio) diff file (not boosted in amplitude)
and perhaps a 50% slowed down version of that diff file

Given my previous comment, it might be interesting to focus on the part of the track used by Sharur.

 

[Blumlein 88]

"stereo difference" (Stereo difference half speed.zip) is available for download

Click to download the transfer "stereo difference" (1 files, 118 MB) with TransferNow

www.transfernow.net

Zipped file which will open into the Deltawave difference file and a half speed version of the same file. 176 khz 32 bit float.

This link should work for 7 days.

@solderdude

 

[Blumlein 88]

When you look at the ABX test done by Sharur you see him constantly repeating a small fragment of the track where he could observe a difference. Let him do the test by switching at random points when playing the full track and he'll probably fail. For me, that technique of identity a difference is a variation of using a tell.



Given my previous comment, it might be interesting to focus on the part of the track used by Sharur.

No I don't agree. I have abx'd difficult files. The limitations of echoic memory mean finding about 5 seconds and switching between them allows you the best chance to hear a difference. The difference is real, though perhaps barely perceptible. You can hear such things this way you could not otherwise. It isn't quite a tell in the sense of cheating, more a case of good listening technique to reach the limits of audibility.

 

[Thomas_A]

Can someone, versed with DW, post the (audio) diff file (not boosted in amplitude)
and perhaps a 50% slowed down version of that diff file so older folks can get an idea of the differences that exceed audiophiles hearing.

Also it might be wise to consider that due to the driver size and type of the Susvara the frequency response above 15kHz may be quite peaky/dippy and vary well over 20dB (also depends on the pinna) which may well be a clue as to why a young individual with extended hearing at louder volumes might be able to pull a successful ABX.

Cameron also said his earlier attempts (captured on video or not ?) were not as good.
Training usually helps (knowing what to look for).
Concluding that there must have been tells/cheating simply because the vast majority (except Cameron and Sharur ?) cannot hear differences/pass the ABX is not really scientific. There are always outliers and they don't need to lie.

And, as Sam Adams already said... it takes quite a lot of dB to hear high frequency sine waves.
The thing is that even if one can pull it off to hear 21kHz (by cranking up a headphone to say... 100dB) that does not mean they can also hear 60dB or 70dB 20kHz+ content in music with masking tones being present.

I remember in my younger years (have been in audio from age 16) I could 'detect' 20kHz but did not sound as tone, had to crank up the volume and could detect it as a 'pressure' being present which disappeared when switched off. Not like something useful in music.

There are too many variables and no real-life witnesses (that can also hear 20kHz+) and verify the test was valid so it boils down to believing Cameron did all he could to make the test valid or he is an dishonest person and had some (deliberate or not) tells. His reaction at 18/20 result does not appear fake to me.
What exactly was the reason for Cameron to reach 18/20 I guess we will never know with 18/20 certainty.

There will always be outliers, for various reasons though. I wonder if it is only with Susvara HP it is heard? Pressuring high enough HF into the ear canal might introduce non-linearities and perhaps some ear IMD. Not cheating but possible explanation besides hearing 21 kHz.

 

[Thomas_A]

When you look at the ABX test done by Sharur you see him constantly repeating a small fragment of the track where he could observe a difference. Let him do the test by switching at random points when playing the full track and he'll probably fail. For me, that technique of identity a difference is a variation of using a tell.



Given my previous comment, it might be interesting to focus on the part of the track used by Sharur.

Interesting. If the time spot is known it will be easier for others to test it. I’ll try later this week.

 

[Geert]

No I don't agree. I have abx'd difficult files. The limitations of echoic memory mean finding about 5 seconds and switching between them allows you the best chance to hear a difference. The difference is real, though perhaps barely perceptible. You can hear such things this way you could not otherwise. It isn't quite a tell in the sense of cheating, more a case of good listening technique to reach the limits of audibility.

In bold is exactly the point I tried to make. Conclusions made from using special techniques to identify differences are irrelevant to the normal listener.

 

[Blumlein 88]

In bold is exactly the point I tried to make. Conclusions made from using special techniques to identify differences are irrelevant to the normal listener.

Yes and no. First you determine if by ears alone you can discern a difference whatsoever. If you can, it still may not be discernible in regular listening, but if you don't even get that far then the answer is much more clear. There are fleeting effects you would hear in normal listening along with some you will not. There is no bright and shining line that is GO/NO Go with this stuff. Various shades of gray.

So best technique done for most sensitivity possible is a reasonable first filter. A first hurdle to cross.

 

[Geert]

Interesting. If the time spot is known it will be easier for others to test it. I’ll try later this week.

This is what he has on repeat.

And he identifies the difference each time within 2 seconds, that's why I say he's listening for kind of a tell. In the video he explains the difference at that point as a shift in imaging (sound more drawn to the left if I recall correctly).

 

[Thomas_A]

This is what he has on repeat.
View attachment 367685

And he identifies the difference each time within 2 seconds, that's why I say he's listening for kind of a tell. In the video he explains the difference at that point as a shift in imaging (sound more drawn to the left if I recall correctly).

Thanks. Good info for others to try ABX.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

This is what he has on repeat.
View attachment 367685

And he identifies the difference each time within 2 seconds, that's why I say he's listening for kind of a tell. In the video he explains the difference at that point as a shift in imaging (sound more drawn to the left if I recall correctly).

Well yeah!
There is either an Audible difference in the two tra class, or there isn't. The test was, to tell them apart Only by listening, which he did. What did you expect? use his xray vision.
He set out to prove there is an audible difference, and succeeded.
This is turning into "how the magician pulled it off" which presumes trickery.

 

[VientoB]

Yeah it’s a fair point he did manage it.

I recall him saying in an old product review of his that there was something odd about the soundstage and he thought it was due to the frequency response. Perhaps the added resolution above 20kHz is influencing some soundstage elements here.

 

[goat76]

No I don't agree. I have abx'd difficult files. The limitations of echoic memory mean finding about 5 seconds and switching between them allows you the best chance to hear a difference. The difference is real, though perhaps barely perceptible. You can hear such things this way you could not otherwise. It isn't quite a tell in the sense of cheating, more a case of good listening technique to reach the limits of audibility.

I agree with you that it should not be considered cheating if the listener finds a small segment of a song where he hears a difference between the sound files, the main question here is if the listener can or cannot identify differences in sound, and if he can, it's enough to prove that it is indeed a difference that the human hearing can locate. At this point, the question is not whether the differences are significant enough to be important for the average listener, that's up to the individual listener who hears a difference.

 

[Geert]

Well yeah! There is either an Audible difference in the two tra class, or there isn't. The test was, to tell them apart Only by listening, which he did. What did you expect? use his xray vision. He set out to prove there is an audible difference, and succeeded.

And what does that have to do with me commenting he's using kind of a tell to identify the difference?

 

[VientoB]

And what does that have to do with me commenting he's using kind of a tell to identify the difference?

Using a tell is a good way to identify a small difference.

 

[restorer-john]

Imaging (precise placement of a specific element) in the soundstage or a tiny imbalance is usually the most overlooked but easy "tell" there is. But, all of that relies on the two reference tracks (A+B) and X and the ability to switch really rapidly between them.

 

[Geert]

Using a tell is a good way to identify a small difference.

Yes, that's exactly my point. So totally crazy to suggest I expect him to "use xray vision".

 

[oleg87]

So I'm not going to sit through that video, but does Sharur claim to hear 20khz+ as well?

I'm trying to detect any discernable imaging tells, but so far just boring myself out of my mind.

 

[restorer-john]

I'm trying to detect any discernable imaging tells, but so far just boring myself out of my mind.

When you get to the point where you are listening to the equipment and not the music, it's a slippery slope to the end of the interest in HiFi. I've been there before. Most of us have been in similar positions at some time, I would say.

I say, turn off Youtube and the talking heads and listen to real music.

 

[Blumlein 88]

"stereo difference" (Stereo difference half speed.zip) is available for download

Click to download the transfer "stereo difference" (1 files, 118 MB) with TransferNow

www.transfernow.net

Here is the stereo difference file and half speed stereo.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

When you look at the ABX test done by Sharur you see him constantly repeating a small fragment of the track where he could observe a difference. Let him do the test by switching at random points when playing the full track and he'll probably fail. For me, that technique of identity a difference is a variation of using

This is why I said, what do you expect.
It sounds to me , you wanted him to fail the test, by altering the test criteria.
There are so many instances on ASR, referring to Blind tests, and it being the only reliable way to determine audiblity. Now that it has been done with a result we didn't expect (or like), . . .