Coax, optical, ethernet, USB, HDMI....

[Fitzcaraldo215]

... Personally I like the computer usb- mch dac solution myself. But the industry needs some better standards for mch than we have now. Don't know if we'll ever get them though. I've had some kind of mch setup on and off since 1974 but the general public never really gets behind it.
Witness me eating a Whopper with my Marantz 2270 and 2440 quad addon circa 1975 LOL
View attachment 1949

I think the standards for Mch digital audio are OK at this point. The main consumer choices are HDMI and USB, both of which work fine in the environments for which each is intended. There are plenty of HDMI-based solutions in players, AVRs and prepros, all strongly supported by Home Theater manufacturers. With USB, that is not true. There are only a few Mch USB DACs. Most AVRs and prepros do not support USB inputs, AFAIK. Their emphasis beyond HDMI for "networking" their devices has been Ethernet.

The main convenience issue with HDMI or USB is really just cable length for those. But, there are various extenders available for those protocols that seem to work.

Also, DRM considerations play a role, though most DRM schemes have been hacked. But, HDMI is limited by DRM. You cannot plug a standard player or cable box into a PC via HDMI, because nobody on the PC side wants to pay the license fees and also be limited in what they can do by that license. HDMI out of a PC is no problem, though. Plenty of computer audiophiles play music and video from their PCs via HDMI to AVRs/prepros. (My PC audio goes to a USB DAC, but my video goes to my monitor via HDMI.)

Pros, of course, have a lot more choices, such as the 4xspdif or AES, Ethernet or even optical.

Direct Ethernet connections seem to be lagging in development of high quality products for consumers. Much HT gear supports Ethernet input, usually via UPnP, but Kal has been lamenting the fact that the consumer products are all stereo only. No Mch at this point, AFAIK. Also, not much in Mch Ethernet DACs. It is a bit of a stretch to call the Merging NADAC a consumer product, I think, and it runs a specialized Ethernet protocol, not UPnP.

 

[Sal1950]

I think the standards for Mch digital audio are OK at this point. The main consumer choices are HDMI and USB, both of which work fine in the environments for which each is intended.

Yes, you are of course correct, I just shot from the hip out of frustration. Going back to the quad "fad" of the early 70s I always believed (hoped) that some mch system would become the norm for music recording and playback, but its popularity has flowed in and out like the tide a couple times over the last 40 years. We now have the tech we only dreamed of years ago but still very little is recorded and sold in some mch form.

 

[NorthSky]

Video time.

♦ http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/2/8704551/usb-type-c-is-the-future

 

[Blumlein 88]

So NorthSky what is your opinion on this? The above in your last post is a lot of blah-blah-blah without much useful data. Even the one saying no difference.

Here is some very basic data:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/04/measurements-usb-cables-for-dacs.html

You can find other data. Usually the USB cable doesn't matter as long as it meets USB spec more or less. It is another one of those things sold on wishful thinking and imagined problems.

 

[amirm]

Video time.

♦ http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/2/8704551/usb-type-c-is-the-future

Watched this one. Was all excited when he said he was going to do a blind test. Sadly even though he says to have passed it, he gave no statistics. Beforehand he said there were 16 trials. Why not for heaven's sake not say how many iterations he passed.

The section where he puts himself on the video taking the test looks pretty fake. When you switch USB cables, the sound stops, usually the player stops too, then when you connect, it takes a while for everything to load up again. You do not hear the different cables as fast as he is pretending to hear them. Maybe that was for show but combined with not saying how many iterations he passed, it makes the whole thing not believable.

I am confident if I conducted such a test on him, he would fail.

That aside, it is remarkable to see how folks get converted to believing these things. Lay assumptions of "noise in the music" is made up as explanation and believing is what happens.

 

[fas42]

Cables, digital or analogue are the devil's food - popped around last night for a good listening session with the local audio friend; and we spent a good part of the time wrestling with the 3" of DIY cable linking the music player out, and the Naim amplifier in! Different wiring arrangement, different geometries, back and forth - yes, night and day, in his setup. The SQ was going up and down throughout all the exercises, we finished the evening, unfortunately, with the sound not in the zone - he needs to bite the bullet and do some more optimising in the cables area, which he knows is necessary, and he wasn't looking forward to it.

It's a bummer when things go flat in the last round - all part of the audio game ... .

 

[NorthSky]

Amir, you are always in pursuit of the truth through science; now is the time for you to experiment with that well engineered ifi USB cable and power supply box, plus the small noise purifier connector, measure all the data, and if it is indeed what that guy says in that video (removing the noise for a much cleaner sound); let Harman Kardon and all its subsidiaries offer this excellent audio USB product to all its customers. ...In the goal to provide absolutely superior sound quality. ...For the love of the music, and of the people who want the better music listening experience.
You are the man of integrity and truth in the audio scientific world; it is your new challenge.

To be continued ... in our researches.

 

[amirm]

I have tested those USB filters and they make no measured difference Bob. I have Michael's high-end USB cable and will do that test soon.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Watched this one. Was all excited when he said he was going to do a blind test. Sadly even though he says to have passed it, he gave no statistics. Beforehand he said there were 16 trials. Why not for heaven's sake not say how many iterations he passed.

The section where he puts himself on the video taking the test looks pretty fake. When you switch USB cables, the sound stops, usually the player stops too, then when you connect, it takes a while for everything to load up again. You do not hear the different cables as fast as he is pretending to hear them. Maybe that was for show but combined with not saying how many iterations he passed, it makes the whole thing not believable.

I am confident if I conducted such a test on him, he would fail.

That aside, it is remarkable to see how folks get converted to believing these things. Lay assumptions of "noise in the music" is made up as explanation and believing is what happens.

There's no business like show business.

Is it me or does it seem that computer audio is even worse than regular audio ever used to be in terms of irresponsible or even faked claims?

 

[Sal1950]

Ray is right, his PBJ interconnects made a big difference in the sound of my system back in 1993. After a series of highly positive reviews in the press I bought 2 sets to put into my system. The difference was immediately audible, the un-shielded POS design induced a massive hum into my system. Dealer blamed it on the transformers of my VTL monoblocks, maybe he was right, I don't know. But the cheap Monsters I had replaced them with didn't have the issue. The good news is after being in a box for 22 years I sold them on ebay at a profit. LOL
I will hand it to him for admitting that in the very high end cable market what your mostly buying are "diminishing returns, trophy construction and materials, and bragging rights that don't lend themselves to audio performance"
A bit of evidence,

 

[NorthSky]

So NorthSky what is your opinion on this? The above in your last post is a lot of blah-blah-blah without much useful data. Even the one saying no difference.

Here is some very basic data:
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/04/measurements-usb-cables-for-dacs.html

You can find other data. Usually the USB cable doesn't matter as long as it meets USB spec more or less. It is another one of those things sold on wishful thinking and imagined problems.

My opinion on this is this: Let the people's ears decide, like this guy from that first video, and let the scientists measure that USB cable and USB small connector, plus the larger power supply box and see what kind of results they get.

• http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-iusbpower/
♦ For headphones: http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-idac/

I also think that the product is very well engineered and looks solid all the way, inside out performance wise from reviews...all that jazz...and is not super expensive but very affordable for people in search of a higher musical experience...good for the soul of a man and a woman.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Amir, you are always in pursuit of the truth through science; now is the time for you to experiment with that well engineered USB cable and DAC box, measure all the data, and if it is indeed what that guy says in that video (removing the noise); let Harman Kardon and all its subsidiaries offer this excellent audio USB product to all its customers. ...In the goal to provide absolutely superior sound quality. ...For the love of the music, and of the people who want the better music listening experience.
You are the man of integrity and truth in the scientific world; it is your new challenge.

To be continued ... in our researches.

Bob - not sure if Amir has the time to measure everything. But, here is a blog out of Vancouver that has done a lot of measurements of mainly computer audio stuff:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/

There is a ton of measurements and good commentary there if you dig back through his weekly blogs. You will get a lot of your questions answered there.

 

[NorthSky]

I too use KK in my main setup, but now hello ifi. I need to investigate their USB cables and their power supplies, noise killers, DACs, and few more of their family products.
It might just be what Tim is exactly looking for...and more people too.

 

[NorthSky]

Bob - not sure if Amir has the time to measure everything. But, here is a blog out of Vancouver that has done a lot of measurements of mainly computer audio stuff:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/

There is a ton of measurements and good commentary there if you dig back through his weekly blogs. You will get a lot of your questions answered there.

Archimago; I looked already. Now time for them to look @ ifi Gemini USB cable
→ http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-gemini/

 

[Sal1950]

Archimago; I looked already. Now time for them to look @ ifi Gemini USB cable
→ http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-gemini/

Bob, you know better than to believe anything in a manufacturers marketing text.

 

[NorthSky]

♦ http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ifi-idac-ican-and-iusbpower/
♦ http://www.stereophile.com/content/...amp-outboard-power-supply#CKGvfPp0jWGCCJp3.97
♦ http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0416/iFi_Audio_Micro_iUSB3_Review.htm

• http://www.stereophile.com/content/halide-design-dac-hd-da-converter#06mRREcLRIG2BmM9.97

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Yes, you are of course correct, I just shot from the hip out of frustration. Going back to the quad "fad" of the early 70s I always believed (hoped) that some mch system would become the norm for music recording and playback, but its popularity has flowed in and out like the tide a couple times over the last 40 years. We now have the tech we only dreamed of years ago but still very little is recorded and sold in some mch form.

Sal - I think Mch in this go round is quite different from the flop of Quad, which I was smart enough to see through as an emerging dud back then. This time, it is not going to go away. The key reason, of course is that cinema and the whole consumer products industry supporting Home Theater is solidly behind it. It is not just a music industry thing, like Quad was. The HT/Video side of consumer electronics is huge, especially compared to the tiny niche of high end audio.

Also, it is easy for me to say because I am a classical music listener, but people continually have no idea how extensive the available discography of high rez Mch really is. Classical is a tiny niche, and Mch an even tinier niche within that. But, those of us who inhabit this niche are really happy with our sound and with available recordings, but there could always be a ton more of Mch recordings, of course. Unfortunately, there is not too much to get excited about recording-wise in Mch in the big popular genres like rock. But, I am really happy with my library of thousands of classical discs on my PC in hi rez Mch. I seldom listen to anything else. I see no end in sight to this, and I have a fair number of close audiophile friends who are just as happy as I am with Mch.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

♦ http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ifi-idac-ican-and-iusbpower/
♦ http://www.stereophile.com/content/...amp-outboard-power-supply#CKGvfPp0jWGCCJp3.97

• http://www.stereophile.com/content/halide-design-dac-hd-da-converter#06mRREcLRIG2BmM9.97

Earth to Bob - why are you linking in all these subjective reviews? They are a dime a dozen as well as well as all over the Internet. We all know they are out there. You are ready have the opinion of folks here on reviews like that. So, I am not seeing your point. Is there a question or a comment here?

 

[NorthSky]

Bob - not sure if Amir has the time to measure everything. But, here is a blog out of Vancouver that has done a lot of measurements of mainly computer audio stuff:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/

There is a ton of measurements and good commentary there if you dig back through his weekly blogs. You will get a lot of your questions answered there.

Amir is not the only audio measuring guy on the planet. But if he has the time sometime, that would be swell too.
I think he still has one of Mike's audio product to test on his bench.

And ifI USB cable (3.0) with power supply, is not the only company making quality/superior USB cables.

* Get a separate USB power supply (ifI or another good one), because manufacturers don't have the time to put a decent one in their products, and no money either.
Then try various USB cables to see if it makes a difference with a five dollars one, or better sound with a $50-100 one.

 

[NorthSky]

Earth to Bob - why are you linking in all these subjective reviews? They are a dime a dozen as well as well as all over the Internet. We all know they are out there. You are ready have the opinion of folks here on reviews like that. So, I am not seeing your point. Is there a question or a comment here?

Stereophile has measurements too. And this audio website right here is also welcoming subjectivists. ...And not strictly objectivists.

Fitz, I am down-to-earth, and I know that you know everything. When I don't comment it's free info for everyone, to grab or not. In your case, you'd rather criticize the poster.
What do you expect me to do? Discuss the post content, and forget about Bob.
If I am outside the proper boundaries of ASR TOS, I'm sure you'll let me know, as a good friend.
I have no bone, no skin, no veins, no blood, just an audio mind that is expanding.
I have no agenda, I'm not an audio dealer, I search and share and discuss the topic and NOT YOU, and NOT ME. Unless we are both friendly and smart enough to be positive.

Action, reaction. I react to the same tune you're singing. Tout a fait natural, n'est-ce-pas, sir?
________

* I will no longer participate in this thread (Tim's thread). It is simply too hostile, not friendly, no fun. I'm not having fun.