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Audiofools turned objectivists or vice-versa?

JP

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@MattHooper I've explained my perspective as clearly as I'm willing to expend the effort to do so and don't have much interest debating things on a sentence-by-sentence level. I understand your position, and I'm comfortable that I've explained mine. It is what it is.
 

dtaylo1066

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I sense some toro waste. Audio does not need to be contrasted as black and white, or science vs. anti-science. If you wish to take it that far than I would say the true objectivist should shun audio entirely and listen only to unamplified, live music. The end product of audio is one of illusion with stereophonic manipulation, equalization, cross-overs, etc., all spit out of aluminum, paper, carbon or other types of cones in the pursuit of personal enjoyment. We should not make it out to be a bigger thing, or some "holy" thing.

Yes, we are all irrational in our lives. I would suggest, or at least wonder, how some of the doggedly devout objectivists on this fine forum apply -- or fail to apply -- similar dogma in other parts of their lives. I would guess in many instances not so well.

I have been in the brewery profession for more than 30 years. I can tell you that some of the beers that folks on this forum (in the ever interesting beer section) profess to love or claim as superb are rather poor examples of the science and chemistry of brewing. Yet if someone exclaimed that to them their likely response would be, "But I love beer, and I think that beer tastes great." I would not and do not mock them for their choice, or what they know or do not know about beer. They think it tastes good and, better still, it gives them a buzz. They enjoy, if not savor, the experience of quaffing their favorite beer or a new beer. Often that is enough for most people. Might they enjoy the experience more with a better-produced product? Conceivably yes. Their personal choice in the matter has no real effect on others.

One may choose to disbelieve or discount the science on vaccine efficacy, the effects of water pollution, or the ramifications of carbon emissions, but the choice in these matters of science affects not only one's self, but the rest of society as well.

I believe 100% in the scientific data posted on ASR. I have no arguments with that at all. I would not buy a product that does not perform or measure up to a certain standard, and this site is great in helping define and articulate that. One would be foolish not to admit that. But audio or music enjoyment for many is just not about a unit's measurements.
 

MattHooper

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By being accurate to what the words actually mean in English.

Words can have different meanings in English.

"Rationalist" could refer to the common understanding of "rational" found in the dictionary or it could refer to the the philosophical tradition, right?
(Two different things). I infer you are appealing to a definition such as: "a person who bases their opinions and actions on reason and knowledge rather than on religious belief or emotional response."

Would that be right?

Again, that didn't actually answer the dilemma I posed, and even your own response about tube amps highlighted the dilemma.
Like I said, both terms "non-rational" and "subjectivist" can suffer the same problem that people can be in a continuum between the extremes, and your own post about tube amps suggested this problem for "rationalists" too.

Further, as I said, I don't think it gets at the distinctions we find among those who eschew measurements and controlled tests for subjective evaluation. Some of them are basing their truth claims on "emotional reactions" they feel when evaluating gear. But others are, by their lights, using reason: reasoning that their ears/brain are more complex and sensitive instruments with which to detect differences than instruments.
They may be mistaken, but to be mistaken doesn't automatically equate to being "non-rational" which implies not appealing to reason.

But "subjectivist" captures both those approaches and anything in between them: as I said, it's an epistemic stance that our subjective experience/apparatus is the gold standard by which to vet sonic differences in audio. That accounts for both the approaches above, more specifically and accurately I think, than the more broad "non-rationalist."


My irrational side loves tube amps. When I compared mine to a more standard amp, ears-only, the sonic differences (up to clipping) were evanescent at best. So I use it (well, until we moved to Phoenix!) for irrational reasons, like enjoying the fun of old technologies.

That's one reason I have a problem with using the term "rational" in general, and your use of it here specifically.

There's nothing irrational or non-rational about your love of tube amps. No more than someone's love of, say, a mechanical watch.
What is irrational about enjoying old technology? You appreciate something about old technology. It brings you joy to use. You are under no illusions or false beliefs about it. That's entirely rational.


The Manichean limitation is yours (and many others', as well), not a general one.

Ok, that strongly suggests you aren't trying to understand what I'm arguing. You seem to pretend I haven't given any nuance.

Most of the things we categorize come with caveats and pragmatic justifications, not "Manichean" absolutism. Unless you are also going
to accuse your local hardware store, or biologist, of manichaeism?

If you are going to just ignore all the non-Manichean caveats I've given for the categories "subjectivist" and "objectivist"...can you explain to me why your division between "rationalist" and "non-rationalist" isn't your own Manichean limitation? ;)
 

noobie1

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What ASR has taught me is that everyone is being subjective until you have DBT or measurements to back your statement.
 

pma

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What ASR has taught me is that everyone is being subjective until you have DBT or measurements to back your statement.

This opinion supports my view that "ASR" conclusions are often an oversimplification and this is the opposite I am interested in. I understand that college textbook views may be useful to explain something but definitely do not cover anything in deep.
 

Pennyless Audiophile

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The distinction here regarding controlled testing is that the "subjectivist" is generally loath to admit his subjective inference is wrong

Many subjectivists are in perfect good faith and they do not "loathe" to change their mind.
Good faith subjectivists may change their mind if the evidence they are presented with conforms with their methodology, i.e. if you could replicate the result of a blind test in a sighted test (flame starting in 3,2,1 ;o).
Mind, many subjectivists do not think that science and measures are wrong, they simply believe that they are not really relevant because what counts are the sensations they have.
That is the way they approach the hobby.
The problem is that the majority of the sensations they have are hurriedly dismissed as "audiofoolery" by the objectivists.
The problem is the reciprocal look down and despise that the two fields throw at each other. This has no sense whatsoever: we are talking about a hobby!
As I said before, while scams need to be addressed, everyone has its own way.
While I know well what is going on from a scientific point of view and I am guided by the objectivist point of view, I still make my final choices based on my sensations, because that it is what I am looking for, good sensations.
 

Rottmannash

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Was audiophool and then started testing (the correct way).

It's fine to believe... it can bring great pleasure.
It's better to know... it can bring piece of mind.
Well said.
 

Rottmannash

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I think of audiophilia as more of an addiction than a religion. A user is always looking for that next dopamine hit and denies everything that could possibly stand in the way, like logic or common sense.

Most objectivists (not all) are recovering addicts, I'd venture to say. Instead of trying to prove things with DBTs and measurements, we should set up a support group and hold regular meetings ;)
...as my trembling finger hovers over the "buy" button on the D90se. I'll attend the meetings. "I'm an audiophool and my life has almost become unmanageable."
 

Rottmannash

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You're not alone. McGurk effect demonstrates the universality of this. Close your eyes, and you perceive what you hear. Open them, and you are back to auditory perception comprised of a combination of what you see and hear. It works this way even when you are completely aware of what is happening.
Is that why my car system sound so much better at night?
 

Rottmannash

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Me too. It is a discussion blown waaaay out of proportion. One issue is identifying the snake oil and the scams that populate the industry like Amir does. Totally different is insulting each other over a hobby. Take it easy, guys!
Agree. Last night I was reading some guy's comments in the HeadFi thread on the D90-he was insulting the sh*t out of Amir, at one point accusing him of being paid by Topping and insinuating he doesn't do tear downs/take/post photos of Topping products because he claimed someone once believed they got a Topping DAC that he claimed had some op amps switched out for inferior ones after seeing the glowing review of said DAC here. It was bizarre. I tried to insert a bit of truth but it didn't go over well. This site has become a lightning rod for subjectivist ire.
 

Frgirard

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when you read the bla bla bla on the multiverse, you say to yourself that crazy audio is very wise. This is that my copy in an other universe thinks
 

MarkS

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I have been in the brewery profession for more than 30 years. I can tell you that some of the beers that folks on this forum (in the ever interesting beer section) profess to love or claim as superb are rather poor examples of the science and chemistry of brewing. Yet if someone exclaimed that to them their likely response would be, "But I love beer, and I think that beer tastes great."
The difference with audiophoolery is that the beer drinker is much more likely to be able to identify that beer in a blind taste test.
 

Blaspheme

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Agree. Last night I was reading some guy's comments in the HeadFi thread on the D90-he was insulting the sh*t out of Amir, at one point accusing him of being paid by Topping and insinuating he doesn't do tear downs/take/post photos of Topping products because he claimed someone once believed they got a Topping DAC that he claimed had some op amps switched out for inferior ones after seeing the glowing review of said DAC here. It was bizarre. I tried to insert a bit of truth but it didn't go over well. This site has become a lightning rod for subjectivist ire.
Ok, but how did you insert truth on that occasion? Are you Amir's accountant? :)
 
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THW

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… and insinuating he doesn't do tear downs/take/post photos of Topping products because he claimed someone once believed they got a Topping DAC that he claimed had some op amps switched out for inferior ones …

does it pass this guy’s head that maybe, just maybe, Amir can’t actually do teardowns without the express permission of the party sending over the gear for review? because its not actually his property?

some people are absolute nutcases, jeez.
 

Rottmannash

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Ok, but how did you insert truth on that occasion? Are you Amir's accountant?
FYI I was referring to his assertion Amir didn't do teardowns on Topping products. No I'm not his accountant. Why such a snide question? U think Amir is being paid by Topping?
 

Rottmannash

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Ok, but how did you insert truth on that occasion? Are you Amir's accountant?
Maybe go to the thread and read the exchange. Not difficult if one knows how to use a computer.
 
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