Are Integrated DACs Bad Investments?

[restorer-john]

I have a few TOTL integrated amplifiers built in the late 80s/early 90s that have onboard D/A converters which, by modern standards are obsolete.

But the amplifiers themselves are so well constructed, there are no modern contenders at any price I would replace them with. For me, I have zero interest in anythying other than 16/44.1 (or maybe 16/48 as well), so they are perfect, and perform faultlessly.

Were they a good investment? For me yes, but not for the original purchasers. One I bought for $2000 less than the owner paid and the other was $5600 less than the original buyer paid.

 

[ZolaIII]

Well it can't be a finished system without a DAC. If it's only a bare naked amplifier no one will really even try to call it a system.
I have old Denon UD-M30 mini which really had a not so good DAC to the extent I never really liked to listen CD's on it. It still works fully (volume pot skips) including CD drive and after 20+ years I did retire it last year. But that whosent a big problem (used PC and standalone DAC's with it true time). My current music system integrated (class AB) amplifier which is relatively new come with older Burr Brown DSD1791 (PCM1791 with DSD line). While it's relatively old and nothing to write home about it's perfectly fine for the purpose and time won't charge that. It's quite OK and regarding futures and I probably won't need better one's (192 KHz 24 bit PCM and DSD 128). Of course I have other self stand and portable DAC's all newer (ESS 32) and more future rich going up to 512 KHz 32 bit and DSD 256. But seriously who needs that? If I do a conversion I do it on single general purpose CPU core (both integer 16, 24 and FP 32) with software that does it better than DAC.
Point is today's average DAC's with 100+ dB SINAD are perfectly good for a power amp or something similar and even more so if they performance can't be influenced with bad contention, power supply and such (as they are integrated). If it doesn't fit a bill or likings or for any other reason you buy the external one (chances are that you already have them) and use it.
Streaming SoM's are other pair of slippers and those you will probably change faster presumably tied with external USB DAC as a stand alone component. It's great when you at least have some expansion capabilities but we can do very little about that. Typical example would be Pi 4 has a PCIe x1 expansion slot and when you stick a Intel WiFi 6 SoM to it you will get a deacent streamer (with enough processing power for PCM up to DSD 5.6 conversion and pretty much everything else) which won't exhibit network stalls much among other things (WiFi 6 and BT 5.0 [SBC/AAC only]).

 

[Willem]

For ambitious systems with a powerful amplifier stage separates are a good idea, and integrateds with a lot of power have become very rare anyway. However, for more budget gear at the 2x100 watt level integrateds have clear economic advantages. It is just a cheap extra board in the unit, in the same case, and for the same distrobution costs. SInce even these modest integrated DACs are now better than human hearing, the only risk of obsolessence is from completely new formats. If that happens, you can almost always add somethng external.

 

[restorer-john]

For ambitious systems with a powerful amplifier stage separates are a good idea, and integrateds with a lot of power have become very rare anyway. However, for more budget gear at the 2x100 watt level integrateds have clear economic advantages.

Show me a range of current integrated ampliifers form various brands that offer a genuine FTC 2x100wpc@8ohms with a THD at or below 0.005% at full power across the 20-20k spectrum. Those numbers are typical for the 1980s and 1990s, where they actually built them to do that.

Good luck finding many modern integrated amplifiers that will achieve those numbers without self destructing.

 

[Willem]

That is more or less what I was saying: high quality powerful integrateds have disappeared. What is left is the decent quality budget gear like the Yamaha AS701/801.

 

[ZolaIII]

That is more or less what I was saying: high quality powerful integrateds have disappeared. What is left is the decent quality budget gear like the Yamaha AS701/801.

Thers a large portfolio of Yamahas equipment with Sunken output stage from active speakers to solo amps and streamer and they all perform very deacent (regarding power amplifier stage). It's not great but even John has little to complain regarding their performance at least (they won't be in the mentioned spec @ 100W into 8 Ohm's they will be at 1% THD and up to 59W within it).

 

[Gorgonzola]

I've had many hi-fi components in my main music system since 1972 but only one integrated amp. That was a preamp+power amp comb only, with no phono preamp or DAC. Even so, I so regretted on account of a desire to upgrade the power amp section.

But that's just me. If you' haven't got the equipment bug, an integrated might be good you. Even I would be very happy in practical terms with the likes of either the McIntosh MAC7200 with tuner as well as phono and DAC, or an Anthem STR Integrated ... Unfortunately they cost megabucks

 

[JiiPee]

I predict that in not too distant future, the audio equipment market will be divided into two kind of systems:

#1: "the mainstream setup" - a box containing a network streamer , a dsp, and a wireless transmitter. Speakers/heeadphones will be wireless with integrated DACs and amplification. Alternatively, the dsp will also be in speakers.

#2: "the hipster setup" - a turntable, tube amplifiers, and passive speakers/headphones.

 

[ZolaIII]

I predict that in not too distant future, the audio equipment market will be divided into two kind of systems:

#1: "the mainstream setup" - a box containing a network streamer , a dsp, and a wireless transmitter. Speakers/heeadphones will be wireless with integrated DACs and amplification. Alternatively, the dsp will also be in speakers.

#2: "the hipster setup" - a turntable, tube amplifiers, and passive speakers/headphones.

Unfortunately that's not a future but 3~4 generations going on (including on SoC integration of DSP and general purpose core's [QC is on 4th generation]). And sorry that I have to tell you that it isn't working very well. Millions of sold TWS and such and still multiplying in numbers year by year.
I wouldn't say no to WiFi and deacent DAC like CS43131 or better.

2 There will always be strange people like me or more so.

 

[cinemakinoeye]

I predict that in not too distant future, the audio equipment market will be divided into two kind of systems:

#1: "the mainstream setup" - a box containing a network streamer , a dsp, and a wireless transmitter. Speakers/heeadphones will be wireless with integrated DACs and amplification. Alternatively, the dsp will also be in speakers.

#2: "the hipster setup" - a turntable, tube amplifiers, and passive speakers/headphones.

#3 "the audiophile setup" - a variety of niche products from boutique suppliers offering all sorts of promises of aural nirvana.

Are you sure that #3 will not continue to be part of the market? It will always be small, but it is there. The significant difference between #2 and #3 is the overall system cost that places #3 in a distinct category.

 

[watchnerd]

Show me a range of current integrated ampliifers form various brands that offer a genuine FTC 2x100wpc@8ohms with a THD at or below 0.005% at full power across the 20-20k spectrum. Those numbers are typical for the 1980s and 1990s, where they actually built them to do that.

Good luck finding many modern integrated amplifiers that will achieve those numbers without self destructing.

Luxman L-509X integrated amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I measured the Luxman L-509X using my Audio Precision SYS2722 system (see the January 2008 "As We See It"). Before I test an amplifier, I precondition it with both channels driving a 1kHz tone at one-third power into 8 ohms for an hour. At the end of that time, the...

www.stereophile.com

 

[JiiPee]

#3 "the audiophile setup" - a variety of niche products from boutique suppliers offering all sorts of promises of aural nirvana.

Are you sure that #3 will not continue to be part of the market? It will always be small, but it is there. The significant difference between #2 and #3 is the overall system cost that places #3 in a distinct category.

I'm sure the #3 as You describe will be there, but as You say, it will be small. (#2 is, and will be relatively small too, but it makes such an easily identifiable group, that it will always get more than its fair share of attention ).

One thing that will drive the shrinking of #3 market is that neither #1, nor #2 has a place for a stand-alone solid state amplifier - with or without integrated DAC, so it seems probable, that most audio equipment manufacturers will loose their interest to make them.

 

[JiiPee]

Unfortunately that's not a future but 3~4 generations going on (including on SoC integration of DSP and general purpose core's [QC is on 4th generation]). And sorry that I have to tell you that it isn't working very well. Millions of sold TWS and such and still multiplying in numbers year by year.
I wouldn't say no to WiFi and deacent DAC like CS43131 or better.

2 There will always be strange people like me or more so.

Yes, the shift is already happening at the lower end market, but true audiophile wireless speakers and headphones are still rare. My prediction is based on the presumption that the wireless technology will evolve to a level, where it will be accepted in the higher end audiophile market place, that is at the moment still dominated by traditional stand-alone amplifiers and wired speakers.

 

[cinemakinoeye]

I'm sure the #3 as You describe will be there, but as You say, it will be small. (#2 is, and will be relatively small too, but it makes such an easily identifiable group, that it will always get more than its fair share of attention ).

One thing that will drive the shrinking of #3 market is that neither #1, nor #2 has a place for a stand-alone solid state amplifier - with or without integrated DAC, so it seems probable, that most audio equipment manufacturers will loose their interest to make them.

You make a good point! The fate of the stand-alone solid-state amplifier fascinates me as someone who is currently doing research for a new music listening system for our living room. I think we are currently in a baroque period where there are significant innovations and new designs in terms of stand-alone power amplifiers, however, for many people who are both measurement-focused and musicality-oriented, it is hard to resist the powered speaker option. Today it is possible to assemble an end-game music listening system using powered speakers for less than an equivalent pair of passive audiophile speakers and a pair of audiophile high-power monoblocks, for example, Amir's conclusions in his Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor) review has left an impression on me and is certainly influencing my thinking as I continue to research options.