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1 bit DSD DAC implementations

Mivera

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Hi Guys,

Lately the popularity has grown with DAC's that have discrete 1 bit DSD sections. The reason for this is due to the discovery that DSD simply sounds better when it doesn't have to go through the SDM/SRC/multibit conversion process that it must go through in most chips that were designed primarily for processing PCM. Reading around on forums there seems to be quite a bit of confusion on the different ways this can be accomplished. There's no 1 cut and dry superior way to do this. There's several variables at play that can make any method superior based on the implementation and care given to the design. So don't get hung up on the method due to buzz words and marketing hype.

Now let me get into some different implementations.

Method #1, use a DAC chip that has a DSD direct bypass mode:

Although this may seem like a boring way to do it, with proper care and implementation it can be one of the best ways. The main drawback of using off the shelf DAC chips is simply because they are resource constrained. For PCM processing they must do a lot of work. This is why the best DAC's out there use FPGA's or DSP chips to handle this workload, then send the signal to the chip already filtered/modulated. However when you're simply using a chip that has a DSD direct mode as a conduit to pass the DSD through, they are extremely transparent. They also do a great job of handling the traffic flow. The best designs that use this direct DSD path, use extremely well implemented discrete low pass filters after the chip as well as ultra low jitter clocks, and superior board layouts. A great example of a DAC that uses this implementation is the Phison PD2:

PD2 DAC.jpg




Method #2: Use an FPGA:

It's possible to handle everything inside an FPGA. It just needs to be programmed with all of the filters required to filter the noise out of the DSD. Although the PS Audio Directstream DAC's and the EMM Labs DAC's use an FPGA, they aren't pure DSD DAC's like some of the other designs. This is because they have an SDM/SRC section programmed into the FPGA that up samples the DSD/PCM. So the signal passes through that section before it makes it to the DSD filtering. However it's not necessary to do it this way. A pure DSD DAC can also be made. Acko from AckoDAC has one in the works called the Directdrive DSD:

Direct drive DSD.png



Method #3: Use completely discrete components:

This method uses no master clock and relies on a device such as an USB interface to generate a clean jitter free DSD signal. Then it's simply passed through discrete analog low pass filter components. Example's of this is the Lampizator DSD DAC's, AAVIK C-300, and Signalyst DSC-1.


GG low pass.jpg
dsc1-a.jpg


Method #4: 1 bit DAC chips followed by lowpass filter:

This method is like what the Mola Mola Makua and the new T+A DAC 8 DSD uses. However the Mola Mola isn't a pure DSD DAC. It uses DSP chips to upsample everything to a 1 bit format, then uses 32 of these 1 bit chips to filter the DSD. The T+A is more of a pure DSD DAC. It works more like the Signalyst DAC, only uses 6-1 bit chips like the Mola Mola instead of 32.

T+A DAC 8 DSD.jpg
Mola-Mola%20Top.jpg


So there we go. Lots of ways to accomplish the same thing. Just remember a 1 bit DSD signal is very sensitive to jitter. So the clocks used, and board layout is one of the most important things. With proper care with jitter and filtering, any of these methods has the potential to provide better DSD sound than can be had by running DSD through the SDM/SRC/Multibit conversion of a modern SDM DAC chip. However, it doesn't automatically mean it will sound better, it just means that with a very good implementation it can sound better.
 
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Opus111

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In my understanding, given that DSD is insanely jitter-sensitive there are two ways to mitigate jitter's effect. First is to use switched-capacitor filters (as used by AKM for example) and the second is to use a transversal filter (as used by Mola-Mola and Signalyst, also T+A by the sound of it).
 
OP
Mivera

Mivera

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In my understanding, given that DSD is insanely jitter-sensitive there are two ways to mitigate jitter's effect. First is to use switched-capacitor filters (as used by AKM for example) and the second is to use a transversal filter (as used by Mola-Mola and Signalyst, also T+A by the sound of it).

Yes I just lumped that all together in the filtering. However the most important thing is using ultra low jitter clocks, and a very good board layout. The clocks must be located very close to the USB interface, and the DAC. And the clocks must be powered by very clean power or else their rated jitter spec goes out the window. Great care also must be taken to isolate dirty power from the connected USB source. These factors are far more important than which implementation is used.
 
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Purité Audio

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Lukas? became known initially of course for exposing , poor design / cheap implementation within audio products, poacher turned gamekeeper!
Keith.
 

iridium

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I hope that i do not steps on any shoes here.

I have been looking on the Lampizator pictures. First of all it is not discrete DSD DAC. Why do you think they remove the text on top of the chip?!
How does he have conscience to sell such a bad internal work at such high price!????? I do not get it....

The USB receiver is a DIY module. The controller for the DAC chip (I bet it is a CS4398, WM8741/42 or a DSD1794) is a Arduino Pro module.

There is a thread that is perfect for the >>> sanded chip, etc. <<<
Inferior Parts in EXPENSIVE components

iridium
 

amirm

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First, great write up Mike at the start.

As to Lampizator, everything other than the tube amp board seems off-the-shelf boards that he has messed with. Shocking to see that at such high prices. There is sloppy work after sloppy work. I mean look at the board at the far end just dangling in the air:

index.php


Look at the soldering work at the AC mains. They literally burned the insulation trying to solder the wire for the ground. And they were so cheap they could not get a proper green wire for that instead of white?

Naturally looking on the back there is no regulatory certification:

p1010948-2.jpg


How is this legal to sell in EU?

Then there is this board:

index.php


Looks like he had replaced the caps with axial (horizontal) type on the right because the pin out on the PCB is all wrong.

Clock wires on the left are just dangling in the air with hand solder???

I am used to drooling over the guts of high-end gear from engineering point of view. With BOM cost not a limitation, vast majority have incredible guts. Not here. This is amatuer hour.

It looks like something an analog designer would put together, just buying off-the-shelf DIY digital components and building an amp go go with it.
 
OP
Mivera

Mivera

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First, great write up Mike at the start.

As to Lampizator, everything other than the tube amp board seems off-the-shelf boards that he has messed with. Shocking to see that at such high prices. There is sloppy work after sloppy work. I mean look at the board at the far end just dangling in the air:

index.php


Look at the soldering work at the AC mains. They literally burned the insulation trying to solder the wire for the ground. And they were so cheap they could not get a proper green wire for that instead of white?

Naturally looking on the back there is no regulatory certification:

p1010948-2.jpg


How is this legal to sell in EU?

Then there is this board:

index.php


Looks like he had replaced the caps with axial (horizontal) type on the right because the pin out on the PCB is all wrong.

Clock wires on the left are just dangling in the air with hand solder???

I am used to drooling over the guts of high-end gear from engineering point of view. With BOM cost not a limitation, vast majority have incredible guts. Not here. This is amatuer hour.

It looks like something an analog designer would put together, just buying off-the-shelf DIY digital components and building an amp go go with it.

Thanks!
:)
 
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OP
Mivera

Mivera

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Geardaddy

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Looking through the Lampizator archives I found a good example of what you're talking about. He doesn't have too much nice to say about that Krell CD player parts.

http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/REFERENCES/krell cd300/Krell CD300.html

But his assessment is positive if you read through it:

So how does this monster sound in stock form?
The answer is - bloody good. I was shocked, I did not have my drooling towel handy and I listened in total disbelief.

This player is awesome. It sounds spectacular. It equals the best stock players I had. it sounds too good to be true.
Sound is spacious, free, open, fast, powerful, dynamic - everything you might ask. Nothing even resembling remotely the opamped sound of all other stock players. This is real high end. I feel no need for lampization, no need for tweaking. Even if the owner would be rather open about the possibility to do lampization if it was to improve the sound. It is soo good that all I want to do is listen MORE. This is the best stock player I ever had, I must admit that I am in shock.

Just think about it - the mediocre mechanism, mediocre DAC chips, cheapest Krell player ever - and what result. They surely know something about transistors !!!

Parts alchemy and engineering jockeys aside, the secret sauce is still the voodoo of "voicing" and implementation. That is theoretically separates people who feed their kids with audio versus opinionated, DIY, weekend warriors.
 

Geardaddy

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Thanks!

Yeah then we wonder why people who own the GG think vinyl is better than digital still. In this situation, they are probably right! :) Sonny's DIY Mirand stuff is built 100X better.

Look at this gorgeous amp module. And this is his DIY level stuff! It's an insult to real engineers to see this stuff, and people rave about it.

View attachment 395

There are people who own that dac who think its better than their vinyl or even master tape apparently. Who knows. Ears are ears. I am looking forward to hearing the PD2.....
 

Geardaddy

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Back to the thread at hand, I am curious to hear a technical viewpoint about DSDs jitter woes, how to correct for that, and how that correction measures up to uber precise PCM dacs from Weiss, etc. I am also interested in people's views on DSDs ultrasonic hash and whether that it technically or sonically meaningful. I have read enough back and forth from engineering types who think DSD is flawed and not worth pursuing. From a dimwitted, enduser viewpoint, DSD does sound "different" when comparing tracks that are in both DSD and PCM. Upsampling to DSD also sounds "different." I am undecided if its truly better. Time will tell. That's something I have learned about myself (and audiophiles in general). Don't listen to what they say. Watch what they do. If they own a piece for more than a year or two, then it warrants attention.....otherwise its just psychic dust.....
 
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Mivera

Mivera

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But his assessment is positive if you read through it:



Parts alchemy and engineering jockeys aside, the secret sauce is still the voodoo of "voicing" and implementation. That is theoretically separates people who feed their kids with audio versus opinionated, DIY, weekend warriors.


Yes he likes the end result. So do most of the owners of Lampi products.

The Lampi secret is to run everything through a "special effects" tube output stage, and bypass through exotic caps that add "fairy dust" to the sound.
 
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OP
Mivera

Mivera

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Back to the thread at hand, I am curious to hear a technical viewpoint about DSDs jitter woes, how to correct for that, and how that correction measures up to uber precise PCM dacs from Weiss, etc. I am also interested in people's views on DSDs ultrasonic hash and whether that it technically or sonically meaningful. I have read enough back and forth from engineering types who think DSD is flawed and not worth pursuing. From a dimwitted, enduser viewpoint, DSD does sound "different" when comparing tracks that are in both DSD and PCM. Upsampling to DSD also sounds "different." I am undecided if its truly better. Time will tell. That's something I have learned about myself (and audiophiles in general). Don't listen to what they say. Watch what they do. If they own a piece for more than a year or two, then it warrants attention.....otherwise its just psychic dust.....

Well the beauty of the PD2 is you can listen to PCM through the chip's internal processing, or you can upsample to DSD and listen to it through the DSD filter. Up to you. If you don't believe that it sounds better up sampled through the DSD section, simply don't upsample. Nobody is forcing the skeptics to use the superior data path. And if you don't like how native DSD recordings sound, don't buy them, or downsample them to PCM if you feel they will sound better. Half of what audiophile's hear is placebo, so do whatever the combo of your brain and the gear together results in the best sound for you.
 
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Geardaddy

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Yes he likes the end result. So do most of the owners of Lampi products. But he pointed out the cheap parts just as we did here.

Well built products can sound good too you know. You don't have to build something sloppy out of cheap parts to get good sound. There's a reason some engineers go through great lengths using quality parts and superior layouts. Sure it would be much easier slapping a bunch of DIY parts together in a case, but some have the skill to build from scratch. And the good engineers also have kids.

The Lampi secret is to run everything through a "special effects" tube output stage. If you connected the output of an iPhone to one of those tube output stages, it would sound almost the same. It's nothing more than a shiny, overpriced, unreliable, special effects filter.

It either sounds good or it does not. A lot of companies trumpet their products by appealing to engineering prowess and specs, but they have lost market share (and its not simply due to advertising hype and mind control). As for your special effects statement, that is not correct. You can find out more of why he uses tubes on his site or email him. Lucas is actually an engineer as well.

But again, the Lampi straw man thing is tiresome. This forum is for and about science. I would love to have Daniel Weiss and Dietmar from Trinity or Johnson from Berkley chime in as to why DSD is flawed. You hear compelling arguments from BOTH sides....
 

Geardaddy

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Well the beauty of the PD2 is you can listen to PCM through the chip's internal processing, or you can upsample to DSD and listen to it through the DSD filter. Up to you. If you don't believe that it sounds better up sampled through the DSD section, simply don't upsample. Nobody is forcing the skeptics to use the superior data path. And if you don't like how native DSD recordings sound, don't buy them, or downsample them to PCM if you feel they will sound better. Half of what audiophile's hear is placebo, so do whatever the combo of your brain and the gear together results in the best sound for you.

NO ONE is immune from placebo. The ear/brain exerts a powerful influence over everything we do and are (or think we are). You can never extract the quasi-religious element from audio. Music is music and cannot be corralled by "science."
 
OP
Mivera

Mivera

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It either sounds good or it does not. A lot of companies trumpet their products by appealing to engineering prowess and specs, but they have lost market share (and its not simply due to advertising hype and mind control). As for your special effects statement, that is not correct. You can find out more of why he uses tubes on his site or email him. Lucas is actually an engineer as well.

But again, the Lampi straw man is thing is tiresome. This forum is for and about science. I would love to have Daniel Weiss and Dietmar from Trinity or Johnson from Berkley chime in as to why DSD is flawed. You hear compelling arguments from BOTH sides....




I'm not going to have the DSD vs PCM argument. I've explained why DSD sounds better through pure 1 bit DAC sections already. And I explained the solution for the skeptics. The PD2 has the ability to process the DSD and PCM though the methods both sides of the fence argue is better. So we can let the end user decide.
 
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Purité Audio

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Gear Dad, Opus linked to an AES paper which accurately describes the technical deficiencies of DSD right at the beginning of the thread, and Daniel Weiss' white paper on DSD is also there.
Most of the designers I know consider it flawed, and that better results can be obtained using hires PCM.
Keith.
 
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Mivera

Mivera

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Gear Dad, Opus linked to an AES paper which accurately describes the technical deficiencies of DSD right at the beginning of the thread, and Daniel Weiss' white paper on DSD is also there.
Most of the designers I know consider it flawed, and that better results can be obtained using hires PCM.
Keith.

You better drop the Mola Mola line then because it sounds like your belief system is contrary to Bruno's.
 

Purité Audio

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