Mercedes E63 AMG wagon

[QMuse]

Well people here are talking about "carbon" deposits, what type? Are they dry sooty deposits from a rich mixtures or oily deposits from burning oil?
A simple plug reading should point to the cause.
While most everything you say is true, but the ecm can be programed in any manner the designer determines and as long as the vehicle can pass gov emsioon standards, they're good. I've been by-passing those shit tunes for years.

My point was that with modern cars you don't get rich mixtures except for first 5-10 seconds with cold engines when ECU goes open loop waiting for O2 sensor to heat up so it can measure correctly. After that ECU goes lean and stays lean with the mixture, at least with modern petrol engines. With such engines you can get deposits only with buring oil, which, as @blueone explained, is solved with air-oil separators.

 

[Trouble Maker]

Most dieselgate cars had Bosch EDC17C46 ECU. Calibration files were of course developed in-house, so each brand for itself.

If the software development flow where I am is like everywhere else (probably close), then OEMs will also request their own functionality on top of the base (engine) functionality that tier 1 ECU developers supply. The diesel-gate problem was that there was a special function that determined when the car was in emissions/fuel economy dyno operating mode and went into a special (cleaner) state of operation. 'Strange' things happen to modern cars on a dyno. For example most will fault out several dynamics ECUs due to the wheels moving (wheel speed sensors) but the car (g-sensor) not moving; this is a function of the fault detection since if the 2 sensors disagree for too long it means 1 is broken. Or, US testing is done on a 2WD dyno so if you are testing an AWD car you have to 'turn off' any AWD/4WD system; SW turns it off if it is ECU controlled. So, car's going into a special operating mode on the dyno is not just 100% normal, it is actually necessary for the car to function. You also might even make a special mode that makes the car behave closer to what it would in the real world since they dyno is not 100% real. You can find cases where, since the car is on a dyno it might behave better or worse than real world. I've not read or am not even sure if the specifics came out about how that function was made. I do remember something about the hammer coming down on some engineer and managers (usually approve settings or functions) in VW. So it's entirely possible it was a function VW made and added to that ECU so it would only effect their cars. In the US, you have to get approval from the EPA for any special operating modes during this testing. But, clearly in this case they did not do that (cover-up). I've not been involved in any of this regulation testing for Europan market vehicles, but industry practices usually end up at a similar work flow so I would be surprised if it is very different. I imagine most OEMs are very sensitive about any function that could be even remotely construed as a defeat device after the whole VW debacle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device

*I'm in automotive R&D, have worked at tier 1 supplier as well as OEM on several different vehicle dynamics systems that also have an effect on these test and I now work in power-train software controls development.

 

[Sal1950]

I imagine most OEMs are very sensitive about any function that could be even remotely construed as a defeat device. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device

You mean like all the remapping software and services available to get todays engines out of that "starved lean" running condition and getting back to the 12.5 or 13 to 1 condition the engines like to see.

 

[Trouble Maker]

You mean like all the remapping software and services available to get todays engines out of that "starved lean" running condition and getting back to the 12.5 or 13 to 1 condition the engines like to see.

I'm not going to get into what I think about these tunes for my personal use, but the fact of the matter is unless they are stamped CARB approved they are not legal. Every one of them will be sold with an asterisk saying for off-road/racing use only to try to reduce liability for the tune maker. So yes you are right, OEMs have to worry about a lot more than just how much power does the car make, like the emissions, regulatoins and reliability not to mention about 1000 other dimensions of the problem that aftermarket tunes mostly don't consider. Probably the biggest thing these tunes are doing in most downsize turbo cars is turning up the boost and you will get a very nice power increase, which is going to decrease the life of some part of the power-train long term. So as long as users realize that and are happy with that comprise that is fine. Most modern n/a cars will not gain nearly as much from tunes, single digits % of power, probably often 5% or less, as they are usually tuned very well from the factory. That is to say the tunes are not effecting AFR or timing really all that much.

 

[Sal1950]

I'm not going to get into what I think about these tunes for my personal use, but the fact of the matter is unless they are stamped CARB approved they are not legal.

NO, Really? I never heard that before. LOL
I think you underestimate the gains available even to naturally aspirated engines. When combined with a freer flowing exhaust and intake tract, significant gains can be made. And speaking of reliability, when the engines are taken out of the overly lean condition the gov regs force upon them, they run much cooler. And heat is the #1 enemy of engines.

 

[boXem]

This reminds me a discussion on opamp rolling.

 

[HedgeHog]

I didn't go through the whole thread so I don't know if this was mentioned but check to see if the motor is part of the VIN with potential hydrolock issues. It is the result from the headbolts that you mentioned in the OP. I had a C63 and experienced this. MB admits to the engineering fault that the bolts will stretch causing hydrolock. But they will not cover it outside of warranty (neither via goodwill nor partial compensation). I lost a lot of respect for this brand.

 

[Thomas savage]

NO, Really? I never heard that before. LOL
I think you underestimate the gains available even to naturally aspirated engines. When combined with a freer flowing exhaust and intake tract, significant gains can be made. And speaking of reliability, when the engines are taken out of the overly lean condition the gov regs force upon them, they run much cooler. And heat is the #1 enemy of engines.

That's what I did to mine , you gota understand back pressure but open flow cats and a complementary exhaust coupled with ECU tuning ( because those computer is well cut those gains ) will do you grand .

 

[Dialectic]

I didn't go through the whole thread so I don't know if this was mentioned but check to see if the motor is part of the VIN with potential hydrolock issues. It is the result from the headbolts that you mentioned in the OP. I had a C63 and experienced this. MB admits to the engineering fault that the bolts will stretch causing hydrolock. But they will not cover it outside of warranty (neither via goodwill nor partial compensation). I lost a lot of respect for this brand.

Thanks, this is helpful. I am looking at another '07 E63 AMG that is in Pennsylvania, with an auction closing later this week.

Is this a recurring problem, or was it a manufacturing defect in a certain run of headbolts?

 

[Thomas savage]

Thanks, this is helpful. I am looking at another '07 E63 AMG that is in Pennsylvania, with an auction closing later this week.

Is this a recurring problem, or was it a manufacturing defect in a certain run of deadbolts?

Bid bid bid...

 

[Ron Texas]

How about that for a fast station wagon, estate, avant, whatever...

 

[blueone]

NO, Really? I never heard that before. LOL
I think you underestimate the gains available even to naturally aspirated engines. When combined with a freer flowing exhaust and intake tract, significant gains can be made. And speaking of reliability, when the engines are taken out of the overly lean condition the gov regs force upon them, they run much cooler. And heat is the #1 enemy of engines.

Been there, done that, several times. You can even get the result to pass California emissions tests. I see you live in Florida, which is a great place for NA cars, but since we moved to 6200 feet of elevation I am so done with NA engines and their asthmatic wheezing. It's either electric or turbos for me.

 

[blueone]

View attachment 64552
How about that for a fast station wagon, estate, avant, whatever...

Cool, unless the road isn't straight. And safety means don't hit anything and cross your fingers that no one hits you.

 

[QMuse]

So it's entirely possible it was a function VW made and added to that ECU so it would only effect their cars.

With Bosch ECUs you don't "programe" an ECU, which means you cannot add or make any function that doesn't already exist in the ECU. All functions are already programmed in ECU and what you do with calibration is providing a set of parameters which ECU functions will use when controlling how the engine works. I don't know in detail how it was done to implement dyno cheat.

 

[Sal1950]

but since we moved to 6200 feet of elevation I am so done with NA engines and their asthmatic wheezing. It's either electric or turbos for me.

That high elevation can ba a real problem even for turbo'd, the ECU's can have problems compensating for the drastic changes air density from sea level to mile high stuff. I've no real experience with modern injection cars and altitude, but I thought they could do better then what you have experienced?

 

[Ron Texas]

Cool, unless the road isn't straight. And safety means don't hit anything and cross your fingers that no one hits you.

I believe that wagon is set up for straight roads of 1/4 mile plus some space to hit the brakes. Looks like you didn't get it.

 

[QMuse]

I didn't go through the whole thread so I don't know if this was mentioned but check to see if the motor is part of the VIN with potential hydrolock issues. It is the result from the headbolts that you mentioned in the OP. I had a C63 and experienced this. MB admits to the engineering fault that the bolts will stretch causing hydrolock. But they will not cover it outside of warranty (neither via goodwill nor partial compensation). I lost a lot of respect for this brand.

Hydrolock can occur on many cars. It happens when you drive through a alrge and deep puddle so water gets sucked into the air intake. It has nothing to do with head bolts.

 

[blueone]

FYI for the OP:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/mer...r-possible-defect-in-6-2l-m156-engine-120297/

 

[Blumlein 88]

Cool, unless the road isn't straight. And safety means don't hit anything and cross your fingers that no one hits you.

If you drive one of those right, you just touch down on the high spots now and again anyway. As for safety, if properly setup for the strip it probably has a real roll cage and much better restraints than any street car.

 

[QMuse]

That high elevation can ba a real problem even for turbo'd, the ECU's can have problems compensating for the drastic changes air density from sea level to mile high stuff.

Modern turbo engines don't have problem with that. As air density gets lower (as you climb up the mountain) ECU maintains the AFR (air to fuel ratio) to the same target value as set by calibraion parameters. With less air it takes less fuel and the result is less poewr, and that is all.