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Tube Rolling: Does it Make a Difference?

Bob from Florida

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Actually May’s primary amp has always been a Vox AC30, which is indeed a tube amplifier. The amp you’re referring to is the “Deacy” transistor-based amplifier designed by Queen’s bassist, John Deacon, who had formidable skills as a technical engineer himself—and May used it primarily to simulate odd sounds reminiscent of string instruments on songs such as “Lazy on a Sunday Afternoon”.

But it was not responsible for May’s “tone”, which was largely created by the unique constellation of both in-phase and out-of-phase Burns Tri-Sonic single coil pickups, wired in series, coated with epoxide adhesive to cool off the sharpness of the single coil wiring. The somewhat nasal sound is a result of the neck and middle pickups being out of phase—his Red Special was tricked out with an array of switches allowing him to attain a vast array of tones. His sharp attack was aided by his use of a sixpence coin instead of a typical plectrum.

All this was augmented by his use of his choice of British tube amplifiers. If you think the soaring roar he created on his iconic solo in “We Will Rock You” was the result of a tiny transistor amp powered by a 9 volt battery, you’re kidding yourself—that was all Vox AC30 with Tung-Sol EL84s.

I have actually built several Fender Tweed ‘57 Champ amplifiers myself, with a variety of tube configurations. Clapton did indeed use this amp to record the main riff in “Layla”, turned up to full volume and enclosed in a wooden enclosure with close mic placement—and the stock tubes were indeed Tung Sol 6V6s. Walsh has used any number of amps during his career and rarely were they solid state.

What you meant by your closing “generalizations are rarely accurate” statement remains a mystery to me, but if it was in the service of sanctimony and officiousness, I’m afraid that your satisfaction is in no way a result of me feeling intimidated. Cheers!
Did you check out the link provided? https://guitar.com/features/gallery/the-story-of-brian-mays-deacy-amp/
Other searches produce results supporting the AC30 amp. Perhaps both depending on studio recordings or not. By generalizations - I meant convincing guitarists to not believe in their tube amps may be a moot point. I suspect the equipment used will simply be what is needed for the task at hand - tube or solid state.
 

srkbear

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Did you check out the link provided? https://guitar.com/features/gallery/the-story-of-brian-mays-deacy-amp/
Other searches produce results supporting the AC30 amp. Perhaps both depending on studio recordings or not. By generalizations - I meant convincing guitarists to not believe in their tube amps may be a moot point. I suspect the equipment used will simply be what is needed for the task at hand - tube or solid state.
My apologies for misreading your intent. But there are countless eminent guitarists who swear by NOS sought-after tubes and have for decades. That was my original point. The substance of this site raises the question of whether that entire industry, which is monumental (just browse eBay or Reverb to get an idea of the price points of vintage tubes), is based on a ruse.

As for the article you mentioned, I read guitar.com regularly along with many other guitar-based references and I’ve known the story of May’s sound for years. It just isn’t germane to my point.
 

Jim Shaw

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SIY

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My apologies for misreading your intent. But there are countless eminent guitarists who swear by NOS sought-after tubes and have for decades. That was my original point. The substance of this site raises the question of whether that entire industry, which is monumental (just browse eBay or Reverb to get an idea of the price points of vintage tubes), is based on a ruse.

As for the article you mentioned, I read guitar.com regularly along with many other guitar-based references and I’ve known the story of May’s sound for years. It just isn’t germane to my point.
Famous athletes wear copper or magnets. Being skilled at things like sports, music, or acting unfortunately does not grant insight into the bullshit and superstition that inevitably permeates their fields.
 

MarkS

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Most flute players believe that the material the flute is made out of (which has to be gold, silver, or platinum!) impacts the sound. But this turns out not to be true:


I first heard the gold-silver-platinum story from a flute-playing friend in college 45 years ago. I thought it was obvious nonsense; how could it be that the three best metals to make a flute out of just happened to be the three most expensive elements?
 

SIY

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Most flute players believe that the material the flute is made out of (which has to be gold, silver, or platinum!) impacts the sound. But this turns out not to be true:


I first heard the gold-silver-platinum story from a flute-playing friend in college 45 years ago. I thought it was obvious nonsense; how could it be that the three best metals to make a flute out of just happened to be the three most expensive elements?
There is a difference- and that's mass. Not only are their densities different, flute manufacturers change the wall thicknesses as well. So there can be subtle changes in the angle the flute is held and certainly in the playing feel.

Mine is copper-nickel alloy with silver plating because the precious metals are far beyond my affordability range. When I played my instructor's silver flute, it was revelatory, but mostly because the flute was just... better. Unfortunately, I was still the limitation.
 

beefkabob

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I have no idea whatsoever what your point is. Slow clap? My post was a performance? I meant it sincerely, please sit down. What’s up with the gratuitous one-upmanship that is pervading this site of late?
I think the Texas heat and power outages have made you misread my tone.
 

srkbear

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Famous athletes wear copper or magnets. Being skilled at things like sports, music, or acting unfortunately does not grant insight into the bullshit and superstition that inevitably permeates their fields.
I think you just restated my view and point, with an understandably crankier tone—you’ve been through this discussion a few thousand more times on this site than I have!

But as I’ve said a few times now, messing with and collecting vintage guitar amp tubes is a hobby I’ve gotten so much joy and excitement from through the years that I’m determined to hang on to my belief—superstitious, bullshit or no—that until someone designs an air-tight, statistically significant ABX study between distorted cheap new Chinese 12ax7s and a pair of pristine NOS black plate RCAs, I’m sticking with the RCAs—even if it’s only because they look cooler and evoke my musical heroes :)
 

DonH56

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I have known some flutists who paid ridiculously large sums of money for just the headjoint. Didn't seem to affect their playing or sound much from my (back row) vantage point, but they liked them. A year or ten ago several preeminent violinists could not tell a Stradivarius from a new carbon-fiber clone; in fact, the majority preferred the new one. Collecting guitars is a disease. And I have repaired far too many amps destroyed by their players through various acts of incompetence and sheer ignorance. Fortunately, I bypassed guitars for trumpets, only have, uh, seven -- but they are all different! :D
 

DonH56

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It is enough to make one Dizzy?
Cute. No upturned bells on any of them, sorry, don't have the cheeks for it. ;)

Attended a masterclass he gave many years ago, very nice (and very talented!) guy. His parting words: "May your horn be hot and your sound be cool!"
 

Holmz

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Cute. No upturned bells on any of them, sorry, don't have the cheeks for it. ;)

Attended a masterclass he gave many years ago, very nice (and very talented!) guy. His parting words: "May your horn be hot and your sound be cool!"

There is a bit of a double entendre there.
 

srkbear

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I have known some flutists who paid ridiculously large sums of money for just the headjoint. Didn't seem to affect their playing or sound much from my (back row) vantage point, but they liked them. A year or ten ago several preeminent violinists could not tell a Stradivarius from a new carbon-fiber clone; in fact, the majority preferred the new one. Collecting guitars is a disease. And I have repaired far too many amps destroyed by their players through various acts of incompetence and sheer ignorance. Fortunately, I bypassed guitars for trumpets, only have, uh, seven -- but they are all different! :D
Well, there’s a fine line between being a collector and a hoarder! Here’s my playful take on how I perceive the difference:

I have around 10 guitars, but they’re all very different—two are basses, one a Music Man Stingray with active electronics that’s a totally different instrument than my Fender Precision. Two are acoustics, one twelve string the other standard. Then there’s a Les Paul, a Telecaster, a Strat, a Rickenbacker, a groovy seafoam green Danelectro—I’m still missing a Gretsch and an SG. They all sound completely different and play completely differently—some have humbucker pickups with a fat sound, some have single coil and the tele even has a lipstick pickup at the neck.

If you’re a fan of rock music and work on guitar amps, you surely know the signature sounds of all these instruments—they’re far less subtle than differences between violins (and there have been other studies that refuted that Stradivarius blind test :)). Classical string and brass instruments are all based on the same mechanics—but rock guitars are a mechanical-electronic hybrid, and have further variances based on pickup choice and placement, and they resonate differently depending on whether they’re hollow or solid bodied, etc. It’s rare for any artist—unless you’re Stevie Ray Vaughan—to limit themselves to one type of guitar.

But even if none of that matters, guitars are pretty! Some people collect impressionist art, or Steuben glassware, or even bubblegum cards or Star Wars memorabilia. I happen to find vacuum tubes beautiful objects that come in a vast array of elegant, innovative shapes, and I can’t articulate where my fascination with collecting them comes from. For those who collect things as a hobby to rise to the level of disease, I’d say it would have to involve pursuing it to financial ruin or to the detriment of employment or social functioning. Otherwise I think it is fun, and I’m always fascinated to hear the stories of those who collect things (with some exceptions of course—bugs come to mind). :eek:

Having said all that I now have to look inwards with brutal honesty and reflect on my own financial ruin and social dysfunction status…shit.
 

MattHooper

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For those who might find something like this a bit of fun....(and of course not presented as 'proving' anything)...

Here's a relatively recent video, testing sound quality differences between tubes in the same amp:

EL34, 6550, KT88, KT120: Which Tube Sound Best? SOUND DEMO with QUALIO IQ Open Baffle speakers​




I'm curious for anyone who cares to listen: do you hear any differences and if so, what?

I believe I do (though see my tag line) and it seems pretty consistent. I listened first on my desktop, then in my home theater system, and percieved the same differences between the tubes. I won't say what I *think* I heard so as not to prejudice anyone else's listening.

Though I found it fascinating that the character of the KT120 tubes stood out the most for me, seeming to do some of the very things I heard when I replaced my 6550s with that tube. And I note that many of the comments under the video seem to be identifying the same sonic characteristics I heard.
 

Russm535il

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I have a Rogue Cronus Magnum 2 tube Integrated amp with KT120 tubes. Thank you for testing this theory . I have always wondered about it now I know it’s unnecessary
 
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