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Coax, optical, ethernet, USB, HDMI....

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Additional question for everyone: Any preference between Optical and Coaxial digital?
There is also Glass Optical, and BNC digital audio cable.

I've compared USB, coaxial, and optical here. I was never able to hear any audible differences between the 3. As I mentioned earlier due to all the claims of noise problems with USB and the fact that optical does offer a 100 galvanticaly isolated termination I ended up using that just for my mental heath. LOL Using the BlueJean Mitsubishi POF cable.
 

NorthSky

Major Contributor
In my own setups I reserved the best digital connections for the best audio components. :)

Here's another overall question/observation: In many hi-fi audio components I noticed only a coaxial digital output is present. And in many lo-fi audio components only a digital optical connection is present. Did you guys also noticed this similar "phenomenon"?

Lo-fi like all the plastic 2 pounds Blu-ray players.
On the higher end (mid-fi too) they have them both, plus few others...USB asynchronous.

And! For stereo ultra hi-fi audiophile components, most of them don't have a HDMI connection.

Last, many of my components have an Ethernet jack; I use none/zero of them. ...Including my computer. I tried the HDMI connection from my laptop before; it was awful. The sound and the picture were separated by roughly five/ten minutes!
They must be working real hard those manufacturers in making sure that their connections are solidify all the way. ...In and out. If they did, we wouldn't need to buy additional boxes to fix their manufacturing mistakes/defects/negligence/less than optimal designed audio/video products.

Build cheap, and suffer. Why bother put connections if they are not working properly? ...Just so that we feel confident seeing them?

Sorry, but I'm just telling like it is. I still love life, and everything that is included inside of it, even if it doesn't work like it supposed to work.
I'm saying this with a realistic humor touch.
 
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Fitzcaraldo215

Major Contributor
I find it interesting that Mark Waldrep of AIX records has used a specially modified (by Oppo) Oppo BluRay player for his last 2 HiFi shows to get quality playback of his 5.1 surround recordings. I really would have loved the opportunity to listen to this system. Maybe time for Oppo (and others) to supply something like this as stock allowing critical listeners to use the DAC's of choice.

"Oppo Digital will be supplying one of their industrial strength players modified to allow 4 x S/P DIF outputs. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the generosity and care that the Oppo team takes in making sure that our signal path is digital all the way. Using S/P DIF digital signals between their player and a set of 3 Benchmark DAC2 HGCs guarantees that everything that is in the music is presented without coloration, amplitude changes, or filtering. The DH Labs digital interconnects that we’ll use to make the connections are relatively inexpensive because they don’t have extravagant marketing budgets like some of the other makers but they do the job. Getting a S/P DIF digital signal from a Blu-ray player to a high-end DAC is not difficult in stereo but digitally sending multichannel audio is a bit trickier.

Benchmark will be supplying three of their state-of-the-art DACs…the DAC2 HGC models AND connecting the balanced outputs to their highly regarded AHB2 power amplifiers. These amazing amplifiers will be operating in mono bridged mode once again and driving the Revel Salon 2 speakers that were so impressive last year (I know my friend at Harmon/Revel is currently working on securing the same 5 speakers as last year…I’m keeping my fingers crossed)."
Sal - I might be guessing, but I think that the Oppo player was likely modified by an Audiopraise Vanity board that supplies 4xcoax spdif out. I have heard this combo with an Oppo 93 in stereo, with Andy Quint, a close friend who reviewed the Vanity for TAS some time ago. Subjectively, in careful, but not totally bias-controlled listening, he and I both thought the Vanity made a positive (small but noticeable and repeatable as is typical of digital audio differences) improvement vs. the stock Oppo via either its standard spdif coax or HDMI output.

But, there is a lot more going on in the Vanity board than just the connector jack. For example, the Vanity performs DSD-PCM conversion itself at either 88k or 176k overriding that in the native Oppo fixed at 88k. The Oppo cannot output PCM converted from DSD via its spdif jack, although the Vanity can: licensing issues.

Andy was reasonably impressed, but he did not buy the Vanity, because he is a primarily Mch listener (like me) and Mch processors or DAC stacks supporting 4xspdif coax are relatively rare and expensive. They may also involve other tradeoffs or the loss of key features.

Andy still uses primarily HDMI into his Anthem D2V prepro, which I think has good HDMI jitter measurements, BTW. But, I felt it once again indicated circumstantially that HDMI might be very good and very listenable, but not quite the ultimate, all totally subjectively, of course.

Incidentally, Kal Rubinson was also using a custom modified Oppo via 4xspdif coax (not Vanity) into his Meridian prepro, his long term reference. Though, I think you will find that he has gravitated more recently to computer audio via Asynch USB into a Mch DAC, as have I.
 
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RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
I was just wondering...are all optical fiber cables optimized equally?

No.

But for the few meters you'll use them for, I wouldn't expect any difference.

The plastic fiber in a multimode cable allows the light waves to bounce off the sides on the way to the other end. This causes attenuation and dispersion of the pulses. MultiMode can be used for thousands of feet. Plastic is not quite as transparent as glass. The light source can be visible LED. TOSLINK transmitters operate at a nominal optical wavelength of 650 nm(~461.2 THz).

The glass fiber in a singlemode cable is much smaller, and the light (invisible infrared) can only travel straight down the cable. The glass (8-10 microns) is thinner than a human hair (17 to 181 microns). The attenuation and dispersion properties are better.

The light source is laser, and the laser power can be such that a speck of dust at the connector can heat and melt the glass. The optics of the connectors/transmitter/receiver are more refined. The nominal wavelength is 1530 nm. Data rates depend on the transmitter/receiver, again. Currently, up to 96.21504 Gbit/s per laser on a multiplexed fiber.

I've sent light 60 miles before Raman Amplification and Dispersion Correction and up to 600 miles before regeneration (capture to electrical and retransmit) while working at Nortel (RIP). You can do that with an error rate of 0 over 24 hours while testing. Multiple lasers are combined onto one fiber to send more data (DWDM). In this case the lasers are tuned to wavelenghths around 1530 nm

Either type of cable (plastic or glass) has much more bandwidth capability than necessary for any audio application.

The limits of TOSLINK are in the (cheap) transmitter and receiver, not the plastic cable. Bitrate Originally 3.1 Mbit/s; now 125 Mbit/s. Apparently there is a new flavor of TOSLINK.
 
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Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Sal - I might be guessing, but I think that the Oppo player was likely modified by an Audiopraise Vanity board that supplies 4xcoax spdif out. I have heard this combo with an Oppo 93 in stereo, with Andy Quint, a close friend who reviewed the Vanity for TAS some time ago. Subjectively, in careful, but not totally bias-controlled listening, he and I both thought the Vanity made a positive (small but noticeable and repeatable as is typical of digital audio differences) improvement vs. the stock Oppo via either its standard spdif coax or HDMI output.
OK you tweaked my curiosity, I knew I remembered Mark talking in a little more detail about the mod for last years Axponia. Apparently he did install the board himself last year, it was provided by Oppo. No mention of board manufacturer but does talk of the chip if that help ID it?

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=4466
"Every source device has to have an analog output board. The internal DACs convert the digital stream to analog and then output the individual channels to the RCA jacks on the back of the machine. DHL delivered a small box late this afternoon that contained a replacement analog board with about 8 thin wires and a couple of power leads routed to the secondary board. This is the board that has an AK4101A semiconductor at its heart. According to the data sheet, “The AK4101A is a four outputs digital audio transmitter (DIT) which supports data rate up to 192kHz sample rate operation. The AK4101A supports AES3, IEC60958, S/PDIF & EIAJ CP1201 interface standards. The AK4101A accepts audio data and auxiliary information data and etc, which is then biphase-encoded and driven on to a cable. The audio serial port supports eight formats.”

Just interesting little tidbits of info. Personally I like the computer usb- mch dac solution myself. But the industry needs some better standards for mch than we have now. Don't know if we'll ever get them though. I've had some kind of mch setup on and off since 1974 but the general public never really gets behind it.
Witness me eating a Whopper with my Marantz 2270 and 2440 quad addon circa 1975 LOL
Marantz1976.jpg
 

Cosmik

Major Contributor
Are you saying jitter is not an issue in a bi-directional interface?
Hello Tim. Yes, I am saying that. It is no different from downloading a file into memory and then playing it. In this case, we are simply starting to play it before it has downloaded fully.

A non-bi-directional interface could do the same thing, but the playback rate would never perfectly match the downloading rate so the buffer would always empty or over-fill over time, hence the need for the DAC to synchronise with the incoming data stream to prevent this. This adaptation has to be dynamic and non-deterministic and is affected (ever so slightly) by noise, jitter, cable quality and so on.

In a domestic hi fi situation this is not necessary because the DAC can be the master sample clock and, using a bi-directional interface, request the data in packets whose timing is immaterial as long as the data gets there in advance of when it is needed. This relies on the source of the data being able to perform in this way, and I don't think it is always obvious when this is possible. A standard integrated CD player does it intrinsically, because the CD motor speed is effectively slaved to maintain the audio buffer at a certain fill level, and the DAC sets the "drain rate". A PC CD ROM is effectively random access, and the PC simply grabs the data off the CD as it is needed, and the PC is slaved to the DAC via its requests for data. The same is obviously true for hard disks and memory. Where it is less obvious, is streaming off the internet. I am reasonably sure that services such as TIDAL are ideal i.e. the player requests the data in chunks - TIDAL is not forcing data into the player at a fixed rate. Not so sure about Youtube. I assume that for internet 'broadcasts' something, somewhere in your system has to adapt to the incoming data rate.
 
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Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
OK you tweaked my curiosity, I knew I remembered Mark talking in a little more detail about the mod for last years Axponia. Apparently he did install the board himself last year, it was provided by Oppo. No mention of board manufacturer but does talk of the chip if that help ID it?

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=4466
"Every source device has to have an analog output board. The internal DACs convert the digital stream to analog and then output the individual channels to the RCA jacks on the back of the machine. DHL delivered a small box late this afternoon that contained a replacement analog board with about 8 thin wires and a couple of power leads routed to the secondary board. This is the board that has an AK4101A semiconductor at its heart. According to the data sheet, “The AK4101A is a four outputs digital audio transmitter (DIT) which supports data rate up to 192kHz sample rate operation. The AK4101A supports AES3, IEC60958, S/PDIF & EIAJ CP1201 interface standards. The AK4101A accepts audio data and auxiliary information data and etc, which is then biphase-encoded and driven on to a cable. The audio serial port supports eight formats.”

Just interesting little tidbits of info. Personally I like the computer usb- mch dac solution myself. But the industry needs some better standards for mch than we have now. Don't know if we'll ever get them though. I've had some kind of mch setup on and off since 1974 but the general public never really gets behind it.
Witness me eating a Whopper with my Marantz 2270 and 2440 quad addon circa 1975 LOL
View attachment 1949
You don't like gherkins then? Is that you picking them out? :D
 

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Witness me eating a Whopper with my Marantz 2270 and 2440 quad addon circa 1975 LOL

Let's try a little DRC on that:

upload_2016-5-21_10-0-46.png


That's better...
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Love British gherkins. They are not so popular in states though.
Ah, pickled gherkins are to the limit of my understanding more Eastern European in origin, the ones you had in Blighty are a little sweeter( much like them Burger King ones) but sill pickled.

The whole point of the pickled gherkin is to counter the fat, it's basically a pallet cleanser so the sweeter English ones are very silly. A great example of a whole nation missing the fundamental point of purpose and in making a abstract ingredient ' pleasant ' ruining the whole intention in the context of its original intended purpose.

Hey the story of the humble gherkin, the story of man.. Intertwined :D

As I am special, and worldly beyond common comprehension I tend towards 'home' produced gherkins from the gardens of wise old polish women. :D

That's nobility for you:D
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
You don't like gherkins then? Is that you picking them out? :D
You got one hell of an eye there Thomas! Yep I always take the pickles off my burger. Not that I don't like pickles but to me they tend to overwhelm the flavor of the meat. ;)
I do have a jar of Claussen Kosher Dills in the fridge that I'll eat on the side, they have more of that analog flavor.
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Shoot I wish I still had those Marantz components, have you seen the prices a clean 2270 are pulling on ebay? Sadly those pieces went bye bye in the divorce from the first wife. :(
Oh well, better stuff was quick to come, both in gear and women. :cool:
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
You got one hell of an eye there Thomas! Yep I always take the pickles off my burger. Not that I don't like pickles but to me they tend to overwhelm the flavor of the meat. ;)
I do have a jar of Claussen Kosher Dills in the fridge that I'll eat on the side, they have more of that analog flavor.
It's a combination of what I observed in the picture and what my spy's find in your bin every week sal;)
 

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Why didn't you just order your Whopper the way you wanted it, un-pickled?

 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Why didn't you just order your Whopper the way you wanted it, un-pickled?

I used to go to the same Burger King in 1970s when I lived in Florida. Their burgers were always cold and stale. So one time I said, "please make it hot." You should have seen the dirty look I got from the girl behind the register! But I did get one of the freshest Whoppers I ever had! Have it your way? I don't think so. :)
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
I used to go to the same Burger King in 1970s when I lived in Florida. Their burgers were always cold and stale. So one time I said, "please make it hot." You should have seen the dirty look I got from the girl behind the register! But I did get one of the freshest Whoppers I ever had! Have it your way? I don't think so. :)
Direct from the microwave? You must of felt special :D

I will remember that should we ever meet... " amir feels special when fed direct from microwave ":D
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Why didn't you just order your Whopper the way you wanted it, un-pickled?
LOL, but they usually messed up the order if you asked for some'in special.
Ray what the hell's a gherkin these limeys are talkin bout?
 
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