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What is 'incompetent digital' ?

March Audio

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No test, just observation. There's to my knowledge no known test for quality.

Why did you think I needed to 'test' ?

So lets get this straight, you have hypothesised an improvement in sound quality - it can only be a hypothesis because apparently there is no test for it....so how you ascertained it was an improvement is quite fascinating...... and then hypothesised it was due to an improvement in noise floor modulation which ......dont tell me .....you cant quantify.

Is there any purpose to the conversation?
 
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Opus111

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It doesn't quite look like you did get it straight.
 
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Opus111

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But that's yet another mischaracterization. Film at 11.
 

amirm

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I like to make sure we are clear about the charter of this forum:

1. We are here to have fun. If the tone of your responses don't reflect this, you are in the wrong forum.

2. In any argument, the point of view of accepted audio science/engineering wins. This means using bias controlled listening tests, citing literature, showing circuit design and its merits, measurements, etc.


This is why we are here. If we violate this, then we are just like any other forum out there and no reason for us to exist.

So make sure levity is part of the conversation and its tone. And bring data to the arguments so that we can learn or advance our thinking.
 

Ethan Winer

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I'm unclear on the meanings of these words 'legitimate' and 'valid' in an engineering context. Would you please clarify?
One example of a legitmate spec is frequency response. Everyone who understands audio knows what it means, and how it affects the sound, and it can be measured precisely and repeatably. A perfect example of a useless descriptor is "musicality" which we often see bandied about. The quote below is from my Audio Expert book.

--Ethan

The Audio Expert said:
Audio Terminology

Earlier I mentioned that I prefer the term “low-cut” rather than “high-pass” when changing the frequency response in the bass range. Both are technically correct, but some common audio terms make less sense. For example, “warm,” “cold,” “sterile,” “digital,” “forward,” “silky,” and so forth are not useful because they don’t mean the same thing to everyone. On the other hand, “3 dB down at 200 Hz” is precise and leaves no room for misinterpretation. Of course, “warm” and “cold” or “sterile” could describe the relative amount of high-frequency content. But saying “subdued or exaggerated highs” is still better than “sterile” in my opinion. However, many of the terms I see are nonsensical.

Sometimes people refer to a piece of gear as being “musical” sounding or “resolving,” but what does that really mean? What sounds musical to you may not sound musical to me. Some people like the added bass you get from a hi-fi receiver’s Loudness setting. To me that usually makes music sound tubby, unless the music is already too thin sounding. The same goes for a slight treble boost to add sheen or a slight treble cut to reduce harshness. Whether these response changes sound pleasing or not is highly dependent on the music being played, the specific frequencies being boosted or cut, and personal preference.

I don’t think we need yet more adjectives to describe audio fidelity when we already have perfectly good ones. Some audiophile words are even sillier, such as “fast bass,” which is an oxymoron. The common audiophile terms “PRaT” (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing) take this absurdity to new heights, because these words already have a specific musical meaning unrelated to whatever audiophiles believe they are conveying. Some of the worst examples of nonsensical audio terms I’ve seen arose from a discussion in a hi-fi audio forum. A fellow claimed that digital audio misses capturing certain aspects of music compared to analog tape and LP records. So I asked him to state some specific properties of sound that digital audio is unable to record. Among his list were tonal texture, transparency in the midrange, bloom and openness, substance, and the organic signature of instruments. I explained that those are not legitimate audio properties, but he remained convinced of his beliefs anyway. Perhaps my next book will be titled Scientists Are from Mars, Audiophiles Are from Venus.
 
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Opus111

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One example of a legitmate spec is frequency response. Everyone who understands audio knows what it means, and how it affects the sound, and it can be measured precisely and repeatably.

Thanks for the example, doesn't help in this context though to shed light on the meaning of the words you used.

Reading the quote from your book it seems (I'm guessing here) that perhaps 'not legitimate' and 'not valid' might mean 'subjective'? In which case I would agree 'dynamic' is a subjective perception. But purely because something's subjective, does not mean its meaningless as you seem to be hinting in that excerpt from your book.
 

March Audio

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Subjective is meaningless until some control and understanding is placed into the assessment. Otherise it is simply "I like".

Personal subjective opinions on sound quality are often very flawed and influenced by many other factors beyond sound quality.
 
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Opus111

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You talk about 'opinions' but in my understanding they have no place in science, except as hypotheses to test. Something can be subjective without being an opinion.
 

March Audio

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I like to see them :).

OK, here are a couple of test files. I'll explain precisely what I did to them in a few days time and we can argue the toss over the validity of the exercise then :)

Have a listen for different perception of dynamics, as per Opus' hypothesis.

If people can PM me their observations rather than post them in the thread we can avoid influencing each other. I will anonymise the comments when I report back.

Have fun

http://gofile.me/2vnEF/hO4u99Ykj
 
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Thomas savage

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all this back and forth, i sense romance in the air..
r-JUAN-HIDALGO-large570.jpg
 

amirm

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OK, here are a couple of test files. I'll explain precisely what I did to them in a few days time and we can argue the toss over the validity of the exercise then :)

Have a listen for different perception of dynamics, as per Opus' hypothesis.

If people can PM me their observations rather than post them in the thread we can avoid influencing each other. I will anonymise the comments when I report back.

Have fun

http://gofile.me/2vnEF/hO4u99Ykj
Thanks a bunch. I am downloading but will be in meetings most of today and tomorrow, away from my system. I may listen with headphones tonight.
 

Ethan Winer

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Reading the quote from your book it seems (I'm guessing here) that perhaps 'not legitimate' and 'not valid' might mean 'subjective'? In which case I would agree 'dynamic' is a subjective perception. But purely because something's subjective, does not mean its meaningless as you seem to be hinting in that excerpt from your book.

BE718 (who was that masked man?) summed it up nicely:

Subjective is meaningless until some control and understanding is placed into the assessment. Otherise it is simply "I like". Personal subjective opinions on sound quality are often very flawed and influenced by many other factors beyond sound quality.

The problem with words like "dynamic" is they're utterly meaningless. I'm certain you can't define that word in a way that means the same thing to everyone. "Dynamic range" on the other hand has a specific meaning that can be easily verified.

--Ethan
 
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