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2020 Corvette Convertible $66,400

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Frank Dernie

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Just for you Ray. Track comparison of a 2015 Camry, and a 1966 Corvette.
Willow Springs. We did a pre Long Beach test there every year whilst it was an event in the World Championships. The most memorable was running Mario Andretti in a Williams FW08 before he did his one and only race for us, then getting stopped by a policeman with a shotgun for going a little bit too fast on the way back. He had been sent out when the regular police car couldn't keep up and was very pissed off until I apologised profusely praised the superb US freeways and explained I was an Englishman returning from a GP test with Mario Andretti...
 

Ron Texas

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Triumph Triple owner here too, with factory racing open pipe! I love the burbs too.

Here is The British rival of new Vette, McLaren GT, is the double+ price worth it?
https://cars.mclaren.com/en/new-mclaren-gt
In the US, about 3 times the price, roughly even with a 911 Turbo. At over $200k (plus sales tax) the market is a lot narrower than a Vette, or even a $120k Porsche.
 

JJB70

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This is a good point.

I used to live near one of or maybe the only rail yard that rebuilds and restores steam engines in the US.

Years back a relative who was a professional historian had permission to go on the yard and even sometimes move the engines around the yard or go on test rides with the people restoring them. Got to ride on the actual Orient Express like that once. I remember once they had just finished a medium sized steam freight locomotive. They'd taken it out and pulled some heavy loads testing it. I seemed to recall it pulled the same weight that would require everything 8 modern diesel electrics could pull up the test hill. The test was only 60% of its expected capacity. So I can imagine people saying the dinky little diesel electrics weren't a match for really hauling something. But with those you can add and subtract engines as needed, they keep synchronized and can work together and in the end simply are better fit for the purpose.

There is a book I'd recommend by Albert Churella:

https://www.amazon.com/Steam-Diesel...eywords=albert+churella&qid=1577811573&sr=8-2

This isn't a railfan book or a book of pretty pictures but an excellent business and management case study of the transition from steam to diesel by the US railroads. Although it is focused on a technological discontinuity in the railroad segment the underlying issues are common to most technology discontinuities.

Well into the 1940's engineers at companies like Alco and Baldwin were still publishing papers pointing to the great advances in steam locomotive technology and how these would keep steam competitive with diesel and electric traction. Now we look back at the idea of roller bearings transforming performance and some of the other great advances and with hindsight will probably either laugh or ask how anyone could have thought that but these were not idiots, they were highly experienced and extremely competent engineers that had raised the steam locomotive to its ultimate peak of development. These companies had a very slick manufacture and design capability which was perfectly attuned to the needs of steam era railroads. Their problem was in looking at an industry through the prism of an existing technology and being blind to the power of a new one to completely transform an industry. Many of their arguments were quite correct, even as the steam locomotive died the giant articulated designs had immense pulling power unrivalled by alternatives, and diesel locomotives were expensive to buy (interestingly it was an early example of finance packages and after sales service being more important than purchase cost and drive away product state as GMD/EMD leveraged their economic muscle to offer knock out financing to customers and after sales support, staff training etc) but they didn't comprehend that railroads would adapt to multiple locomotive lash ups to get higher power and adapt to the technology as the advantages in terms of lower maintenance, lower through life costs, efficiency, staff costs and the torque characteristics of electric motors were so overwhelming. And even at that time people were noticing just how dirty steam locomotives were and the effects on local air quality.

I think it was you that commented earlier in this thread that technologies reach their peak of perfection as they are made obsolete, and it is true. The last steam locomotives were magnificent machines, but hopeless anachronisms even when new. The last generation of piston engine fighters like the F8F Bearcat and Hawker Sea Fury were also magnificent but already yesterdays technology even as they were entering service. My last job in electricity generation before I returned to marine was a project for a new coal fired power plant (which happily was cancelled before being built) and despite utilising every technology available with super critical boilers and steam conditions requiring much of the piping, boilers etc to be made from high nickel super alloy steels (if I remember rightly, circa, 725C steam and almost 350Bar pressure) and it was still only calculated to be 45% efficient (I think Australia continued pursuing the same technology to try and prove coal had a future, but it is all spookily similar to the efforts to prove that steam locomotives were still the future for railroads in the 1930's and 1940's).

I believe we are seeing a similar transition in automotive, yes the old ICE still has certain advantages but fundamentally the tide is with electrification of automotive and beyond the emotional appeal of engine exhaust notes it's hard to argue against that tide really.
 

NTomokawa

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EV's are a tiny part of the auto market. The only reason they exist at all is expensive taxpayer funded subsidies and absurd fuel economy regulations. All they accomplish is move CO2 from the tailpipe to battery production and power generation. It's just another result of scientific fraud, regulatory excess and crackpots who believe there will be unlimited carbon free electricity 24/7.
A small battery car for urban use is probably not too bad. I'd drive an electric Trabant instead of my three-row crossover for my urban adventures where the engine (and subsequently the emissions system) never gets up to proper operating temperature.

That being said, even if we ignore the fact that battery cars have already polluted more than gas cars when coming off the assembly line, how much they pollute in use depends on the source of charging power. Here in Quebec it's not so bad since we have so many hydro dams. In places where electricity is generated using highly-polluting methods (thermal), the actual environmental impact, I fear, is far worse.
 

beefkabob

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The problem with the Lebanon cars is that they can't handle the power. Not enough rear grip. Not enough brakes for high speed. Suspension is too sloppy. Not properly designed for drag cars. So even if you get the cheapest once, you're going to have to spend many thousands to get a serious performance boost. Still, you can end up with an 8 second car if you do everything right and without going too overboard.

Mr. Texas, go test drive a model 3 performance or model s performance then come back and talk to us about the future of cars. 5.0 is 5.slow.

My favorite engine sound is a supercharged E60 550i with header.
 

Ron Texas

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A small battery car for urban use is probably not too bad. I'd drive an electric Trabant instead of my three-row crossover for my urban adventures where the engine (and subsequently the emissions system) never gets up to proper operating temperature.

That being said, even if we ignore the fact that battery cars have already polluted more than gas cars when coming off the assembly line, how much they pollute in use depends on the source of charging power. Here in Quebec it's not so bad since we have so many hydro dams. In places where electricity is generated using highly-polluting methods (thermal), the actual environmental impact, I fear, is far worse.

I could say the same thing, but I don't want a different car for every purpose. It gets expensive. Just how clean electricity is varies, but considering the big picture, it isn't clean enough to be subsidizing EV's now assuming we need to reduce carbon emissions. If the UN and world leaders really believed there was a climate emergency they would not be doing things like shutting down nukes, proposing cross border payments to poor countries an inventing excuses like "historical carbon budget" for developing nations to not reduce their carbon emissions. The Left loves it because they see an opportunity to change the economy to something more to their liking. There's a good chance that 20 years from now the wind turbines will be worn out and people will be wondering about the cheapest way to get rid of them.
 

JJB70

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A small battery car for urban use is probably not too bad. I'd drive an electric Trabant instead of my three-row crossover for my urban adventures where the engine (and subsequently the emissions system) never gets up to proper operating temperature.

That being said, even if we ignore the fact that battery cars have already polluted more than gas cars when coming off the assembly line, how much they pollute in use depends on the source of charging power. Here in Quebec it's not so bad since we have so many hydro dams. In places where electricity is generated using highly-polluting methods (thermal), the actual environmental impact, I fear, is far worse.

No, it's not. Despite all its faults and polluting nature, thermal power plants are operated to maximise thermal efficiency and if operated as part of combined heat and power schemes can easily go well above 60% thermal efficiency. Emissions are controlled and with emissions abatement systems to reduce local pollutants.
Internal combustion engines can be pretty efficiency at their optimum load, the problem is they're not usually operated at their optimum load and when operating at transient conditions (acceleration and braking) and at high turn down ratios efficiency plummets. Large marine diesels go above 50% thermal efficiency (but seldom achieve that in service), automotive engines (either diesel or petrol) are well below that and seldom hit anything like their brochure claimed efficiency in service.
And in many parts of the world the electrical system is well into its own transition to renewable and low emission modes of generation.
 

beefkabob

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I could say the same thing, but I don't want a different car for every purpose. It gets expensive. Just how clean electricity is varies, but considering the big picture, it isn't clean enough to be subsidizing EV's now assuming we need to reduce carbon emissions. If the UN and world leaders really believed there was a climate emergency they would not be doing things like shutting down nukes, proposing cross border payments to poor countries an inventing excuses like "historical carbon budget" for developing nations to not reduce their carbon emissions. The Left loves it because they see an opportunity to change the economy to something more to their liking. There's a good chance that 20 years from now the wind turbines will be worn out and people will be wondering about the cheapest way to get rid of them.

Politicians rarely thing beyond the next election. They rarely think about anything but maintaining power for themselves. We're already getting nailed by climate change, but we're not getting nailed hard enough for people to wake up. People are slow learners. As for wind turbines, they need maintenance and replacements just as gas turbine plants do. However, the fuel is free, and they don't push the true and horrible costs of fossil fuel energy production onto future generations.
 

Ron Texas

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Mr. Texas, go test drive a model 3 performance or model s performance then come back and talk to us about the future of cars. 5.0 is 5.slow.

What is this "OK Boomer"? You are dancing on the edge of nasty. Go wait at a supercharger and tell me the future of cars. I don't mind if people have a choice. I do mind seeing my tax dollars go into Elon Musk's pocket or being forced to buy an EV because ICE's get regulated out of existence.

You are missing a lot, just like the guys who want to argue about what a real AMG is.
 

blueone

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You are missing a lot, just like the guys who want to argue about what a real AMG is.

No we're not. We just like to make sure a narrow-minded Trekkie isn't disseminating false information while you're name-calling.
 

NTomokawa

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I wonder when Ford's new 7.3L pushrod V8 will hit the market... And the inevitable insanity that will ensue from aftermarket supercharger kits. Should be fun.

Shelby already cranked that stock 5.0L V8 to 755 HP with a blower. Wonder what numbers the 7.3L could hit.
 

Ron Texas

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No we're not. We just like to make sure a narrow-minded Trekkie isn't disseminating false information while you're name-calling.

I'm not a trekkie. The photo is of Leonard Nemoy and he is not in character as Spock. His achievements in fine art photography and interest in mysticism are why I chose his photo. You missed that.

This "not a real AMG" argument is what lawyers call climbing the other hill. It's a technique to take one's adversary off course and make him follow you up the other hill. The entire point of my mentioning it is to highlight regulatory excesses having an effect on the supply of enthusiast cars coming out of Europe. If you haven't noticed it yet you certainly will in a few years. You are missing that.

I have not done any name calling. The Scotty thing was a joke and it was indicated so with a smiley. You missed that.

You are being rude to me. The information isn't false. If a car says AMG on the side, that's a fact. If you say it's not a real AMG, that's an opinion. Perhaps you should take this topic up with the management of MB or sue them for deceptive practices and see how far you get. This was a fun discussion about an exciting American sports car until it went off topic with climate nonsense.

Perhaps it's time to take the blinders off and stop worrying about what is a real AMG and say something which adds to the discussion instead of your OK Boomer attitude.
 

NTomokawa

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If a car says AMG on the side, that's a fact.
I uh... I have a hard time putting the GLA45 AMG in the same class as other more AMG-y AMG cars.

Maybe it's just the ones I've seen here, but the two or three GLA45 AMG I've seen all look and sound like ricer cars.
 
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Sal1950

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I could say the same thing, but I don't want a different car for every purpose. It gets expensive. Just how clean electricity is varies, but considering the big picture, it isn't clean enough to be subsidizing EV's now assuming we need to reduce carbon emissions. If the UN and world leaders really believed there was a climate emergency they would not be doing things like shutting down nukes, proposing cross border payments to poor countries an inventing excuses like "historical carbon budget" for developing nations to not reduce their carbon emissions. The Left loves it because they see an opportunity to change the economy to something more to their liking. There's a good chance that 20 years from now the wind turbines will be worn out and people will be wondering about the cheapest way to get rid of them.
Yea but the coal miners are working overtime and digging new mines every day
The nuclear crowd is busy designing new Fukushimas and Chernobyl's
All the while the pro EV propaganda spreaders are telling us how EV's are going to save the world. o_O
How blind can some people be?
 
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Doodski

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Yea but the coal miners are working overtime and digging new mines every day
The nuclear crowd is busy designing new Fukushimas and Chernobyl's
All the while the pro EV propaganda spreaders are telling us how EV's are going to save the world. o_O
How blind can some people be?
Pretty darn blind from what I see. They think there is some miracle solution or something coming down the pipe. The only thing coming down the pipe from where I'm at is more petroleum product but then I am in oil country as are you Texans. At best it will be hydrogen in situ extraction.
 

amirm

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I may be forced to close this thread if the name calling doesn't stop. Please behave. I am working on a project and don't have time to babysit discussions like this. It is the holiday season to boot. Be in cheerful mood when discussing topics.
 
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