Stereo Crosstalk Elimination (reduction) Par Excellence!

[tjcinnamon]

Too bad the Motu Ultralight G5 doesn't have High/Low Pass filters. It's super well reviewed by Amir. That would work very well. It can do phase on all inputs and is $200 cheaper.

Edit: it does have high pass and low pass. You just have to drag the EQ but it adds shelf-ing

 

[tjcinnamon]

@Tim Link any idea why the Revels didn’t sound as good as the Sonys? Also, the standard daytons with waveguide sounded better than the Sony’s?

 

[Tim Link]

I've been thinking about issues with summing in this 3 speaker array. You get a plus 6 dB when you sum the same signal into a single speaker.

@Tim Link any idea why the Revels didn’t sound as good as the Sonys? Also, the standard daytons with waveguide sounded better than the Sony’s?

No. I don't understand for sure what I thought I was hearing with the Revel M16 that bothered me. It could be that they just rolled off a little too fast. Could be the positioning in the room, and the nature of the room's acoustics They actually sounded good, but somehow made the room feel over damped, while the Sonys didn't. I experimented with various acoustic treatments and found that it was easy to make the room sound overdamped if I put anything absorptive on the walls near the speakers in my first room arrangement on the short wall, even with the Sonys. The delayed first reflection panel setup was a big winner however, although that was not an easy arrangement to live with, so it had to be taken down frequently. The Dayton waveguides with the JBL 2426h compression drivers and the 10" Faital Pro mids on the open baffle sounds great to me, and of course it can play a lot louder without strain. After experimenting with setting the crossover all over the place I've settled on 1100Hz now, which puts me back into orthodox territory. The off-axis looks really good there, and overall I found that is to my preference, even though the wacky 3500Hz setpoint does some nice things on some recordings. Maybe I should try it again now that I've got the side stereo channels added.

 

[SteveInEStrouds]

Here is a good read for those care to run all of your sources through your computer https://archimago.blogspot.com/2023/10/stereo-crosstalk-cancellation-xtc.html

There is a DAC with an XTC plugin, the Weiss DAC 5xx series. See section 2.3.10 in the manual https://weiss.ch/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/dac50x-userman.pd

Here is my email reply to the archimago blog: "I had perused the manual when I first got the unit. I had no interest in most of those plug-ins, and it was my ignorance that caused me to ignore the others. Your article was the incentive that I needed. The XTC system was so very easy to use. It did give a better defined soundstage width and depth. Movie dialog is now much more legible. This one preset is active on all inputs. I do avoid computer based applications, because the assumption is that the computer is the only source. Many people complain that the Weiss DACs are overpriced. I say not true. Their DACs include the computer, with many plug-ins already available and in a very accessible fashion. I never stop learning. Thanks!!"

I do continue to read threads like this and other threads, but I no longer have the energy to do all of that work.

 

[Tim Link]

Here is a good read for those care to run all of your sources through your computer https://archimago.blogspot.com/2023/10/stereo-crosstalk-cancellation-xtc.html

There is a DAC with an XTC plugin, the Weiss DAC 5xx series. See section 2.3.10 in the manual https://weiss.ch/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/dac50x-userman.pd

Here is my email reply to the archimago blog: "I had perused the manual when I first got the unit. I had no interest in most of those plug-ins, and it was my ignorance that caused me to ignore the others. Your article was the incentive that I needed. The XTC system was so very easy to use. It did give a better defined soundstage width and depth. Movie dialog is now much more legible. This one preset is active on all inputs. I do avoid computer based applications, because the assumption is that the computer is the only source. Many people complain that the Weiss DACs are overpriced. I say not true. Their DACs include the computer, with many plug-ins already available and in a very accessible fashion. I never stop learning. Thanks!!"

I do continue to read threads like this and other threads, but I no longer have the energy to do all of that work.

The Weiss looks like a nice unit. Maybe not overpriced, but out of my price range. That was an interesting read. I noticed he mentioned the behind the head effects, which is something I noticed on some electronic music when applying recursive XTC to my array.

 

[tjcinnamon]

I've been thinking about issues with summing in this 3 speaker array. You get a plus 6 dB when you sum the same signal into a single speaker.

No. I don't understand for sure what I thought I was hearing with the Revel M16 that bothered me. It could be that they just rolled off a little too fast. Could be the positioning in the room, and the nature of the room's acoustics They actually sounded good, but somehow made the room feel over damped, while the Sonys didn't. I experimented with various acoustic treatments and found that it was easy to make the room sound overdamped if I put anything absorptive on the walls near the speakers in my first room arrangement on the short wall, even with the Sonys. The delayed first reflection panel setup was a big winner however, although that was not an easy arrangement to live with, so it had to be taken down frequently. The Dayton waveguides with the JBL 2426h compression drivers and the 10" Faital Pro mids on the open baffle sounds great to me, and of course it can play a lot louder without strain. After experimenting with setting the crossover all over the place I've settled on 1100Hz now, which puts me back into orthodox territory. The off-axis looks really good there, and overall I found that is to my preference, even though the wacky 3500Hz setpoint does some nice things on some recordings. Maybe I should try it again now that I've got the side stereo channels added.

I've been thinking about issues with summing in this 3 speaker array. You get a plus 6 dB when you sum the same signal into a single speaker.

No. I don't understand for sure what I thought I was hearing with the Revel M16 that bothered me. It could be that they just rolled off a little too fast. Could be the positioning in the room, and the nature of the room's acoustics They actually sounded good, but somehow made the room feel over damped, while the Sonys didn't. I experimented with various acoustic treatments and found that it was easy to make the room sound overdamped if I put anything absorptive on the walls near the speakers in my first room arrangement on the short wall, even with the Sonys. The delayed first reflection panel setup was a big winner however, although that was not an easy arrangement to live with, so it had to be taken down frequently. The Dayton waveguides with the JBL 2426h compression drivers and the 10" Faital Pro mids on the open baffle sounds great to me, and of course it can play a lot louder without strain. After experimenting with setting the crossover all over the place I've settled on 1100Hz now, which puts me back into orthodox territory. The off-axis looks really good there, and overall I found that is to my preference, even though the wacky 3500Hz setpoint does some nice things on some recordings. Maybe I should try it again now that I've got the side stereo channels added.

Wow! That DIY speaker is like $2000 with all those quality drivers!?

Why did you go with the wave guides over a high sensitivity dome tweeter.

 

[Tim Link]

Wow! That DIY speaker is like $2000 with all those quality drivers!?

Why did you go with the wave guides over a high sensitivity dome tweeter.

I already had two of the tweeters and I knew from previous experience that I liked the Dayton waveguides, which are copies of JBL waveguides. I knew they were intended to be used with a matching midwoofer so I thought I'd give it a try. If I went with a dome tweeter I'd need to use a waveguide there too, or switch to a much smaller midrange, maybe a 3" or 4" diameter. I've built speakers like that before and really liked them. I chose 10" woofers but probably should have went with 12". Actually it probably doesn't matter much, but I see JBL matched these waveguides up with 12s. I'd been watching eBay for a 3rd 2426h in good condition at a decent price. I finally found one, still new in box, for a lot less than I originally paid for the other two. It works great and I'm really enjoying it.
I went in to the hifi shop today and set up a new Marantz Stereo 70s, hooked it up to a pair of Revel F35 and a couple of little wireless JBL subs. The owner wanted to hear that setup on both a movie soundtrack and music. We started with an old James Bond DVD, For Your Eyes Only, which was fun to watch but the audio track left a lot to be desired. Switching over to a CD was a night and day difference. The F35s with those subs were really sounding great. I think I could be happy with those. Maybe I should bring them home and put them head to head with my DIY setup. I know my system is more efficient and can go a lot louder, which isn't necessary and probably dangerous, but I'm not confident it's any better otherwise. I wonder if it's even as good. It's hard to tell because its a much bigger space. The 85" TV looks small in there, while my 75" dominates my room.

I mention all that because the F35 has a dome tweeter with a little waveguide and a small midrange. That's a recipe that I've known for a long time works for me, with or without the shallow waveguide. A big waveguide with a big direct radiator woofer is not a combo I've had since I owned some Klipsch RF-7s. I had a love/hate relationship with those. I always figured the 10" woofer was crossed over too high for its size. I'm not sure if that's the case but these measurements of subsequent versions of the RF-7 support my perception of a lacking midrange.

JBL HDI-3600 Speaker Review

If by "we" you mean "product design teams for speakers," then yes that's part of it, along with smooth off axis response. This is a large part of the value in being able to see these spins, imo. The way I see it, different rooms don't change the target; they change the way in which the target...

audiosciencereview.com

It looks like the version III is a doing a little less of that, but still kind of rough. I spent a lot of time trying to EQ those but could never get a really bright and clear midrange out of them. The F35s do it with style and ease. My array is good there too.

 

[tjcinnamon]

Has anyone else tried this yet? I would but I have a pair of Polk L800’s so the XTC is already negated.

I’m gonna try a few things with the atmos modules or a small pair of paradigms tomorrow to see if I can enhance the effect. My L800’s are further apart than recommended.

 

[Tim Link]

After listening for the last week or so I'm back to just the straight array. The side ambience channels are turned off as is the recursive crosstalk. I'm also not doing the 10k and above reversion to straight stereo. So from 220 Hz on up it's just the straight 3 speaker array. Below that it's regular stereo. The other "enhancements" do some nice things, but overall I find them to cause a loss of purity and naturalness, so my long term enjoyment goes down. I'm going to say that's good news because it keeps the setup simpler.

 

[tjcinnamon]

After listening for the last week or so I'm back to just the straight array. The side ambience channels are turned off as is the recursive crosstalk. I'm also not doing the 10k and above reversion to straight stereo. So from 220 Hz on up it's just the straight 3 speaker array. Below that it's regular stereo. The other "enhancements" do some nice things, but overall I find them to cause a loss of purity and naturalness, so my long term enjoyment goes down. I'm going to say that's good news because it keeps the setup simpler.

For some reason I thought you had 5. 600Hz and below on the far outside, 600 to 5000 for the inverse pair, the the full range summed. I guess that’s back with the Sony’s.

What frequencies do the outer speakers of the array use?

 

[Tim Link]

For some reason I thought you had 5. 600Hz and below on the far outside, 600 to 5000 for the inverse pair, the the full range summed. I guess that’s back with the Sony’s.

What frequencies do the outer speakers of the array use?

All three speakers in the center array run 220 to 20,000. The 10" woofers do 220 to 1100Hz, the tweeters 1100Hz and up. I've found it's best to keep them all the same. I've tried a lot of things, including changing the volume of the center compared to the sides, and EQing the sides different than the center. I think it's fundamentally more correct to run them all the same. That's what my ears are telling me.

 

[LIΟN]

Replicate imagined speaker sound to headphones. (With Impulcifer)

Hi. I live in South Korea, and I enjoy exploring and studying various audio information from all over the world. I use a translator. I'm sorry the sentence wasn't smooth. I used the speaker set up in the in-room and was quite satisfied. But I had no choice but to dispose of the speaker because...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I finally finished measuring the binaural.
For effective XTCs, i also tried angle placement such as OP @Tim Link , the author of this thread.

 

[LIΟN]

@Tim Link Hi there. I came back to your thread because I remembered you.
If I remember correctly, you placing additional speakers at the some surround? or specific angle.
Can you tell me what angle it is located at on the listening floor? (If you don't mind)

 

[Tim Link]

@Tim Link Hi there. I came back to your thread because I remembered you.
If I remember correctly, you placing additional speakers at the some surround? or specific angle.
Can you tell me what angle it is located at on the listening floor? (If you don't mind)

I placed them about 45 degrees off axis because I had a convenient place to put them. I read somewhere it should be 60 degrees off axis and elevated for optimal envelopement. I'm no longer doing that, although it was good for providing some stereo effect for poor souls stuck listening to my system off axis.

 

[LIΟN]

although it was good for providing some stereo effect for poor souls stuck listening to my system off axis.

45 degrees off axis because I had a convenient place to put them

Does a 45-degree angle stimulate you well?

60 degrees off axis and elevated for optimal envelopement.

Yes. That's what I know. That elusive spot between roughly 45 and 60 degrees.

 

[Tim Link]

Does a 45-degree angle stimulate you well?

Yes. That's what I know. That elusive spot between roughly 45 and 60 degrees.

Yes, it did some nice things. I liked it for a while but the way I did it wasn't adequate. I may reexplore that again later. I started adjusting the main speakers to make up for tonal anomalies I thought I was hearing due to the side speakers and eventually it just all went off the rails and sounded not so pleasing.

 

[LIΟN]

Yes, it did some nice things. I liked it for a while but the way I did it wasn't adequate. I may reexplore that again later. I started adjusting the main speakers to make up for tonal anomalies I thought I was hearing due to the side speakers and eventually it just all went off the rails and sounded not so pleasing.

Thanks for very kind and quick reply.
As i know, When Place and setting Side/Rear Speaker(For Reflection Copy=Expand Space, ASW/LEV), Those speakers will have to have much more detailed gain control than the main speakers. In some cases, between -10 and -15 db, you may need to lower it.
Also, if you can afford it, it would be more natural if you shot the side speaker at the wall and set the reflection to come to you instead of pointing it directly at you. (The difference between the feeling of sound coming from that direction and the perception that the direction is filled with sound)
I am interested to you in ASR because you are setting up something that is not common even in ASR.

 

[STC]

Yes. That's what I know. That elusive spot between roughly 45 and 60 degrees.

Good cancellation is achieved when the speakers are directly infront of you because it is very difficult to suppress sound detecting coming from about 30 degrees from the side where the pinna is the most sensitive for direction finding. So for food 3D effect avoid sound from that direction.

 

[LIΟN]

Good cancellation is achieved when the speakers are directly infront of you because it is very difficult to suppress sound detecting coming from about 30 degrees from the side where the pinna is the most sensitive for direction finding. So for food 3D effect avoid sound from that direction.

Thanks for advice. I am also experiencing this by practicing what you say myself. It definitely seems to be most active when I crosstalk cancel something that is almost front and center(Almost Mono placed).

And I'm trying to maximize the ASW and LEV by placing the angles at about 45 to 60 degrees in the front and back. (I also like the effect of adding similar angled reflections, but with the added density of the reflections themselves by stacking the height channel layer once more)
For my current setup, I have an angle equivalent to ASW at -15db, which is triggered over 20-40ms. The angle corresponding to LEV is 60-80ms

 

[STC]

Thanks for advice. I am also experiencing this by practicing what you say myself. It definitely seems to be most active when I crosstalk cancel something that is almost front and center(Almost Mono placed).


View attachment 328930

And I'm trying to maximize the ASW and LEV by placing the angles at about 45 to 60 degrees in the front and back. (I also like the effect of adding similar angled reflections, but with the added density of the reflections themselves by stacking the height channel layer once more)
For my current setup, I have an angle equivalent to ASW at -15db, which is triggered over 20-40ms. The angle corresponding to LEV is 60-80ms

For envelopment, the suggested angle is 110. I am not sure of the delay, you are using but with various multiple IRs that ranges from 0.5 to 2s, I find any delay of more than 5 ms is audible as echo. Try using clicks to time align them. Depending on the hardware a 20ms setting may not be 20ms. You have measure at your ears to see the exact delay. I find it easier to time align using clicks rather than measurements.