The root of audiophile myths (and how we fell for them)?

[DSJR]

I can't find the link right now but I saw a story some time ago in which the author pointed out that a surprising number of "audio designers" are self-taught. Generally there's nothing wrong with that, except that the levels of education in physics, science and especially electronics are at an all time low. They are learning without even the most basic fundamentals, so many of these self-taught geniuses are basing what they know on self-developed conjecture.

Others simply 'appropriate' existing work by various means and 'adapt it' to their needs, wrapping a load of bulls**t around it to make it 'theirs' and even editing Wiki pages to their version of old truths it seems...

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Others simply 'appropriate' existing work by various means and 'adapt it' to their needs, wrapping a load of bulls**t around it to make it 'theirs' and even editing Wiki pages to their version of old truths it seems...

And those are the engineers who should be driving trains!

Nothing wrong with borrowing a design as a starting point, it's done all the time with "typical applications" from spec sheets. But claiming some big accomplishment from it is just wrong...

 

[Unground]

FWIW ... Current is the result of applying a voltage across a resistance.

I = E/R (Current = Volts / Resistance)

Thanks. Ahem, that assumes I know what Voltage or Resistance mean. Or what they actually mean in the real world.

So much easier to imagine a river of magic music energy flowing from the source to the speakers. Of course it isn't just frequencies (whatever those are), it's music, which is obviously different. I mean I don't listen to music on an oscilloscope LOL!

Now, I went to a good school and got good grades in my high school subjects, including Physics, Chemistry and Maths. Got a bit disillusioned once we started on calculus (partly the teacher, partly the teenage me) and dropped all that. Now forgotten it all, which to all intents and purposes puts me back at square one.

So I agree with you. Effectively there are lots of us who are living pre-scientifically, or extra-scientifically if you like. We aren't equipped with the basic tools to counter quackery. Not helped by purported experts in media and retail propounding myths of course.

As a case in point (I'm going to mangle this next bit so forgive me), Amir states compellingly that power conditioners can't have any meaningful impact because a) AC is converted to DC via some... doodad... inside each piece of audio equipment and b) each piece of audio equipment has filters that cost pennies that filter any meaningful noise anyway.

I mean, that is clearly nonsense, right? How can something that costs pennies be better than (or render ineffective) a piece of boffinery that costs thousands. And I've no idea what you mean about AC and DC (insert Australian rock group joke here), it's electricity, it must be dirty because...something... and the expensive boffin box makes it cleaner....somehow...

There's a lot of work to do.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Thanks. Ahem, that assumes I know what Voltage or Resistance mean. Or what they actually mean in the real world.

So much easier to imagine a river of magic music energy flowing from the source to the speakers. Of course it isn't just frequencies (whatever those are), it's music, which is obviously different. I mean I don't listen to music on an oscilloscope LOL!

Now, I went to a good school and got good grades in my high school subjects, including Physics, Chemistry and Maths. Got a bit disillusioned once we started on calculus (partly the teacher, partly the teenage me) and dropped all that. Now forgotten it all, which to all intents and purposes puts me back at square one.

So I agree with you. Effectively there are lots of us who are living pre-scientifically, or extra-scientifically if you like. We aren't equipped with the basic tools to counter quackery. Not helped by purported experts in media and retail propounding myths of course.

As a case in point (I'm going to mangle this next bit so forgive me), Amir states compellingly that power conditioners can't have any meaningful impact because a) AC is converted to DC via some... doodad... inside each piece of audio equipment and b) each piece of audio equipment has filters that cost pennies that filter any meaningful noise anyway.

I mean, that is clearly nonsense, right? How can something that costs pennies be better than (or render ineffective) a piece of boffinery that costs thousands. And I've no idea what you mean about AC and DC (insert Australian rock group joke here), it's electricity, it must be dirty because...something... and the expensive boffin box makes it cleaner....somehow...

There's a lot of work to do.

You're a challenge, I'll give you that

Voltage is the part that hurts. Current is the part that kills. Resistance is the part that keeps you alive.

The most "layman" description of Power Conditioners is... "A nice box that costs way more than it does". The notion that an engineer designing a power supply wouldn't think of most of the problems, and needs after-market help is just silly.

AC can't make up it's mind. DC gets the job done without making a mess.

On a more serious note ... let me give you a link to All About Circuits where you can climb into this stuff without a huge dose of smartass attached.

 

[Killingbeans]

Of course it isn't just frequencies (whatever those are), it's music, which is obviously different.

Sorry to disappoint you, but no. Music actually isn't anything other than a sum of frequencies. They can be unwanted (noise), different from intended (distortion) or they can mess with each other (intermodulation), and that's it.

(One more sorry if you were being sarcastic, and it just went over my head)

 

[Unground]

You're a challenge, I'll give you that

Voltage is the part that hurts. Current is the part that kills. Resistance is the part that keeps you alive.

The most "layman" description of Power Conditioners is... "A nice box that costs way more than it does". The notion that an engineer designing a power supply wouldn't think of most of the problems, and needs after-market help is just silly.

AC can't make up it's mind. DC gets the job done without making a mess.

On a more serious note ... let me give you a link to All About Circuits where you can climb into this stuff without a huge dose of smartass attached.

Thanks. I'm being deliberately obtuse to make a point of course. But I'm absolutely sure that hidden behind lots of 'I trust my ears' statements lies big blank space where basic knowledge should be.

All About Circuits looks great, thanks. Reading it now.

 

[Unground]

Sorry to disappoint you, but no. Music actually isn't anything other than a sum of frequencies. They can be unwanted (noise), different from intended (distortion) or they can mess with each other (intermodulation), and that's it.

(One more sorry if you were being sarcastic, and it just went over my head)

Yep. Sarcastic. Facetiously so. In an attempt to emphasise a point.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Thanks. I'm being deliberately obtuse to make a point of course. But I'm absolutely sure that hidden behind lots of 'I trust my ears' statements lies big blank space where basic knowledge should be.

The old saying that "Any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic" has recently been supplemented by "In the absence of technical understanding people create magic to explain their worlds."

I would estimate that 90% of audiophile jargon and mysticism comes directly from a lack of technical acumen.
90% of Snake Oil is from the shysters who prey on those who lack real knowledge.

This is why I suggested Amir and Erin, for all the great stuff they do, should spend more time teaching the most fundamental ideas ... for example: What amplifier power is and how it's measured... What frequency is and how it's measured. A lot of people might find themselves waking up to the importance of measuring our world...

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Sorry to disappoint you, but no. Music actually isn't anything other than a sum of frequencies. They can be unwanted (noise), different from intended (distortion) or they can mess with each other (intermodulation), and that's it.

(One more sorry if you were being sarcastic, and it just went over my head)

No worries ... just having a bit of a giggle over my orange marmalade toast and black coffee...

 

[Killingbeans]

The old saying that "Any sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic" has recently bee supplemented by "In the absence of technical understanding people create magic to explain their worlds."

The worst part is that the magical explanation will be more compelling to you than any facts later being presented. Most people aren't willing to traverse that emotional hurdle.

 

[Killingbeans]

No worries ... just having a bit of a giggle over my orange marmalade toast and black coffee...

I got a can of Koo as part of a birthday basket the other day. Now I feel like popping the lid

 

[Deleted member 46664]

The worst part is that the magical explanation will be more compelling to you than any facts later being presented. Most people aren't willing to traverse that emotional hurdle.

There's an old truism for that one too... "Most people believe what they hear first. Contradictory information is subsequently filtered through that initial belief."

 

[Deleted member 46664]

I got a can of Koo as part of a birthday basket the other day. Now I feel like popping the lid

Go for it!

 

[mhardy6647]

Yep. Sarcastic. Facetiously so. In an attempt to emphasise a point.

Did you know that facetiously is the only word in the English language* that contains all of the vowels in alphabetical order (including the "sometimes" y)?



___________________
* At least, the only one in common use.

 

[antcollinet]

...But I'm absolutely sure that hidden behind lots of 'I trust my ears' statements lies big blank space where basic knowledge should be.
...

I love that:

A knowledge vacuum sucking in audio woo.

 

[DSJR]

Thanks. Ahem, that assumes I know what Voltage or Resistance mean. Or what they actually mean in the real world.

So much easier to imagine a river of magic music energy flowing from the source to the speakers. Of course it isn't just frequencies (whatever those are), it's music, which is obviously different. I mean I don't listen to music on an oscilloscope LOL!

Now, I went to a good school and got good grades in my high school subjects, including Physics, Chemistry and Maths. Got a bit disillusioned once we started on calculus (partly the teacher, partly the teenage me) and dropped all that. Now forgotten it all, which to all intents and purposes puts me back at square one.

So I agree with you. Effectively there are lots of us who are living pre-scientifically, or extra-scientifically if you like. We aren't equipped with the basic tools to counter quackery. Not helped by purported experts in media and retail propounding myths of course.

As a case in point (I'm going to mangle this next bit so forgive me), Amir states compellingly that power conditioners can't have any meaningful impact because a) AC is converted to DC via some... doodad... inside each piece of audio equipment and b) each piece of audio equipment has filters that cost pennies that filter any meaningful noise anyway.

I mean, that is clearly nonsense, right? How can something that costs pennies be better than (or render ineffective) a piece of boffinery that costs thousands. And I've no idea what you mean about AC and DC (insert Australian rock group joke here), it's electricity, it must be dirty because...something... and the expensive boffin box makes it cleaner....somehow...

There's a lot of work to do.

What makes me cringe is that on a couple of UK audio forums I know, the text above reads exactly how many of the posters seem to think!!!

I remain convinced that where I used to live, the mains varied a lot and affected the late 80's CD player especially (the preamp [and power amps I used before I went fully active] were designed by a bod who deeply understood digital and rf circuits and the interference issues they could be sensitive to and designed them out). I'm afraid that taking for granted that niche makers actually KNOW what they're doing really is a mistake in domestic audio, 'cos I think many neither know nor care as long as it works, sounds 'nice' and makes them pots of money. One UK maker had mains transformers which buzzed and snarled a lot of the time at the slightest mains DC and made a great play of it - these days I'd put it down to cheap badly laminated toroids unless one of you could put me right here - the Scottish maker of said transformers was revered too although they may not exist today (Holden & Fisher).

 

[Killingbeans]

What makes me cringe is that on a couple of UK audio forums I know, the text above reads exactly how many of the posters seem to think!!!

That's what had me fooled. New users on ASR often do a business-as-unusual. Poe's law had me on this one

 

[Deleted member 46664]

That's what had me fooled. New users on ASR often do a business-as-unusual. Poe's law had me on this one

Well, I'm new here ... Just over a week ... and I can assure you I ain't no audiophile. I prefer reality.

 

[DSJR]

Well, I'm new here ... Just over a week ... and I can assure you I ain't no audiophile. I prefer reality.

 

[antcollinet]

Did you know that facetiously is the only word in the English language* that contains all of the vowels in alphabetical order (including the "sometimes" y)?



___________________
* At least, the only one in common use.

Oh Nice....