The root of audiophile myths (and how we fell for them)?

[Unground]

DSP isn't going to fix a bad design, no matter how hard you try.
I use some DSP in my setup, but it's mostly there to tame a rather stubborn echo in one corner of my living room. I don't expect it to fix my speakers or make the amp sound better ... It's not evil if you understand its limits and don't try to make it do things it can't.

Completely agree. And nor should it be ignored. Or dismissed as somehow impure. Nor room correction, which never enters the conversation in any hifi store I've been into.

 

[billyjoebob]

How often is that said here? Lol

If your paying attention...
Alot!
Often disguised in other sentences.
Like that "insert dac" is no better than my apple dongle.

 

[billyjoebob]

DSP isn't going to fix a bad design, no matter how hard you try.
I use some DSP in my setup, but it's mostly there to tame a rather stubborn echo in one corner of my living room. I don't expect it to fix my speakers or make the amp sound better ... It's not evil if you understand its limits and don't try to make it do things it can't.

I had audyssey in my last avr.
I did help a bit, but it wasn't a savior.

 

[SIY]

But what I'm telling you is that case vibrations (especially) can cause problems you won't hear in a showroom with elevated ambient noise and other things going on around you. I seriously don't understand why doing a simple touch test is such an issue...

It just doesn’t tell you anything. The sound is what matters.

 

[Pogre]

If your paying attention...
Alot!
Often disguised in other sentences.
Like that "insert dac" is no better than my apple dongle.

That's not what I'm talking about. At all. Nor is it what you said that I quoted.

When someone replies that its good enough.....I'll fix it with DSP.

How often is it said that a sub par, poorly measuring device is good enough and can be fixed with DSP? That's what you claimed. To me that's just about the opposite of the general consensus here...

 

[Deleted member 46664]

It just doesn’t tell you anything. The sound is what matters.

Okay, I give up ... obviously you haven't actually heard anything I've been saying.

 

[Killingbeans]

If your paying attention...
Alot!
Often disguised in other sentences.

It can be used to "fix" a lumpy frequency response, assuming the off axis response somewhat closely tracks the same profile and you don't push the drivers into gross distortion. And it might help mitigating some troublesome room interaction. But nobody has ever claimed that it will make all other shortcomings disappear?

 

[Pogre]

It can be used to "fix" a lumpy frequency response, assuming the off axis response somewhat closely tracks the same profile and you don't push the drivers into gross distortion. And it might help mitigating some troublesome room interaction. But nobody has ever claimed that it will make all other shortcomings disappear?

Exactly. DSP is helpful in dealing with room modes or a bumpy speaker response but my take away from these forums is don't buy gear that doesn't measure well to begin with and you won't have to try and "fix" it with DSP. Save the DSP for dealing with room interactions as best you can.

 

[Unground]

Exactly. DSP is helpful in dealing with room modes or a bumpy speaker response but my take away from these forums is don't buy gear that doesn't measure well to begin with and you won't have to try and "fix" it with DSP. Save the DSP for dealing with room interactions as best you can.

And my take away too. And where possible DSP to be used after physical room correction. Seems solid advice to me.

Not sure I've read anything on this forum that suggests DSP is a way to remedy poorly engineered product.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I agree with everything you say here.

My only complaint is the modern day reliance on DSP.
Too many on this forum have come to the conclusion that if they buy the cheapest equipment, that their DSP will magically fix it.

You can put lipstick on a pig.
But its still a pig.

That's not the fault of the lipstick but of its user and of anyone who expects it to transform the pig. Lipstick applied to its intended target will have its intended effect. So will DSP used properly.

 

[hardisj]

Yes Amir and Erin are doing good stuff for the community. They should probably spend more time on education... so that people understand their results better but the overall effort is definitely welcomed.

Yea ... I'm gonna go with "I know he ain't talking about me!" on this one.

The overwhelming majority of the content I create is based on teaching what the data means, how I correlate it to what I hear and how it can be used as a tool to help people buy speakers. Literally every video I create is done with that sole purpose.

Then there are more "general" discussion videos I create.

(both of which have resulted in emails from some pretty heavy hitters in the loudspeaker industry/science world praising the efforts, if I can humble brag on myself for a second)


And, more importantly, I have this multi-video series on "Understanding the Measurements" which I reference in nearly all my videos. I break down on-axis, off-axis, SPIN, compression, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnIxFR_ey0b37Ex4KV2mBz-kYB7QLffR1

Last but not least, I have videos with interviews of some of the biggest scientific minds in audio: Geddes, Olive, Toole, Laurie Fincham, Lars Risbo, Jakob Agren (who is one of the R&D heads at Dirac) and our very own René Christensen (whom I just did a video with this morning). Oh, and I even had a DIY'r come on and explain his design (the DIYSG 1099). Oh, Oh... and Christian Bellman, one of the minds behind the Klippel NFS who explains how it works. And what is the purpose of those interviews?... Education. I ask them to come and explain topics and educate anyone who is interested (myself included).

(another with Laurie

https://youtu.be/IEtYH03pfOI

https://youtu.be/-s-R1HCYUYs

https://youtu.be/o90AYyceaMI




IOW, there are a lot of things I don't do that I wish I could. But education is absolutely not one of them. It's #1 on my list and I hit that target every single time.


- Erin


(Edit: I forgot just how many people I've had come on my channel to talk!)

 

[Unground]

Exactly. Thanks Erin for your amazing efforts. As I mentioned earlier, the only veil that has been lifted for me recently is the veil of misinformation. Education is key and you're playing a great role in that. In a very accessible way in my view. Sadly, the home audio industry takes caveat emptor to a whole new level.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Sadly, the home audio industry takes caveat emptor to a whole new level.

Yes it most certainly does.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Yea ... I'm gonna go with "I know he ain't talking about me!" on this one.

IOW, there are a lot of things I don't do that I wish I could. But education is absolutely not one of them. It's #1 on my list and I hit that target every single time.


- Erin

I used to train new technicians in a specialty field, years ago, and the one thing I found needed the most work was my own assumption that people knew what I was talking about as I explained things. That got brought up short one day when one of my trainees asked: "What's a voltmeter?" It's strange how we think we're doing such a good job and get stopped dead over such simple omissions... I mean, heck, everyone knows what a voltmeter is... right?

What you guys are doing is great... What I had in mind when I made my comment was the really basic stuff like what frequency response is or what impedance means and so on. Not how they impact performance ... what they actually are.

Anyway guys keep up the good work... love both your channels.

 

[Unground]

I used to train new technicians in a specialty field, years ago, and the one thing I found needed the most work was my own assumption that people knew what I was talking about as I explained things. That got brought up short one day when one of my trainees asked: "What's a voltmeter?" It's strange how we think we're doing such a good job and get stopped dead over such simple omissions... I mean, heck, everyone knows what a voltmeter is... right?

What you guys are doing is great... What I had in mind when I made my comment was the really basic stuff like what frequency response is or what impedance means and so on. Not how they impact performance ... what they actually are.

Anyway guys keep up the good work... love both your channels.

That is an exceedingly good point. We can't underestimate the paucity of scientific/engineering understanding among many of us. For those of us who did not study or work in scientific or engineering disciplines, we either never learned or have long forgotten even the most basic elements.

I mean, ask me the difference between voltage and current and I'll sound like I work in a hifi store.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

That is an exceedingly good point. We can't underestimate the paucity of scientific/engineering understanding among many of us. For those of us who did not study or work in scientific or engineering disciplines, we either never learned or have long forgotten even the most basic elements.

I mean, ask me the difference between voltage and current and I'll sound like I work in a hifi store.

Sadly there are precious few Autodidacts in this world... and they sometimes get it all wrong.

 

[DSJR]

Back in the day, I used to love talking to properly expert and qualified designers, as they usually seemed able to explain concepts in plain English so I/we could understand and absorb the information passed to me/us. It was the second rate 'designers' that fudged and fumbled, trying to make things sound so incredibly complicated to what I now feel disguise their basic ignorance and the UK market back then, as well as the US market right now apparently, was and is full of 'em!

Such a great shame that many of the luminaries Erin has interviewed are now retired or about to be so. People like Mr Fincham though, were usually too busy to entertain the dealers his products were sold by, but there were plenty of others back in the day. I wonder if this industry still attracts genuinely talented engineers or is it such a niche now that they go into other fields of electroacoustics?

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Back in the day, I used to love talking to properly expert and qualified designers, as they usually seemed able to explain concepts in plain English so I/we could understand and absorb the information passed to me/us. It was the second rate 'designers' that fudged and fumbled, trying to make things sound so incredibly complicated to what I now feel disguise their basic ignorance and the UK market back then, as well as the US market right now apparently, was and is full of 'em!

Such a great shame that many of the luminaries Erin has interviewed are now retired or about to be so. People like Mr Fincham though, were usually too busy to entertain the dealers his products were sold by, but there were plenty of others back in the day. I wonder if this industry still attracts genuinely talented engineers or is it such a niche now that they go into other fields of electroacoustics?

I can't find the link right now but I saw a story some time ago in which the author pointed out that a surprising number of "audio designers" are self-taught. Generally there's nothing wrong with that, except that the levels of education in physics, science and especially electronics are at an all time low. They are learning without even the most basic fundamentals, so many of these self-taught geniuses are basing what they know on self-developed conjecture.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

I mean, ask me the difference between voltage and current and I'll sound like I work in a hifi store.

FWIW ... Current is the result of applying a voltage across a resistance.

I = E/R (Current = Volts / Resistance)

 

[SIY]

I can't find the link right now but I saw a story some time ago in which the author pointed out that a surprising number of "audio designers" are self-taught. Generally there's nothing wrong with that, except that the levels of education in physics, science and especially electronics are at an all time low. They are learning without even the most basic fundamentals, so many of these self-taught geniuses are basing what they know on self-developed conjecture.

One of my friends contrasts equipment that has been "designed" rather than "engineered." It's an interesting and, I think, pertinent distinction.