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Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

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Ron Texas

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You are talking about a global energy balance on mostly clean energy, which might never happen or it is far away in the future. In the short term countries that do not produce either cars or petroleum (which are the majority btw) will reduce their own footprint since they won't have to burn coal or consume gasoline for personal transportation. The energy to power the cars would come from hydroelectric, solar, wind, etc. Add to that the benefit of not having to import gasoline from rogue nations (Venezuela, Nigeria).
Hydro doesn't work everywhere. In the US there is enormous resistance to hydro from environmentalists. Solar and wind only run one third of the time. Think about the ramifications of that. The only way to decarbonize the grid with reliable power is nuclear. Only France has achieved that.
 

bladerunner6

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Hydro doesn't work everywhere. In the US there is enormous resistance to hydro from environmentalists. Solar and wind only run one third of the time. Think about the ramifications of that. The only way to decarbonize the grid with reliable power is nuclear. Only France has achieved that.


10,000 times the earth’s daily energy requirement is received from the sun.

Solar energy received daily.

Electric energy can be stored in batteries when it is not being generated. Whether it is in a battery or ad a barrel of oil, all energy is stored at some point before use/generation. In fact, burning fossil fuels is really just using stored solar energy in some ways.
 

Ron Texas

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10,000 times the earth’s daily energy requirement is received from the sun.

Solar energy received daily.

Electric energy can be stored in batteries when it is not being generated. Whether it is in a battery or ad a barrel of oil, all energy is stored at some point before use/generation. In fact, burning fossil fuels is really just using stored solar energy in some ways.
Utility scale battery storage doesn't work. One 35 MW project in Austrailia caught fire. Another one in California cost $400 million to store 400 MW for 4 hours. It isn't working right and runs at 25% capacity. Remember, at 4 hours and one minute it's useless. Wind and solar run about one third of the time. Batteries will not get cities through the other two thirds. Renewables need a lot of land. In the densly populated areas there isn't enough land. So people say put them offshore but those cost 4 times as much.

There sattelite solar is being explored. It's a great solution if it can be made to work. However, the wind, terrestial solar battery solution is an unfortunate illusion because so many people think it will work. I se all kinds of ideas but they are unbelievably expsensive.

In the US renewables are heavily subsidized. There isn't enough money in the world to completely get rid of natural gas.
 

acetogen

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Hydro doesn't work everywhere. In the US there is enormous resistance to hydro from environmentalists. Solar and wind only run one third of the time. Think about the ramifications of that. The only way to decarbonize the grid with reliable power is nuclear. Only France has achieved that.
I guess you missed the part where I said Countries that don't make cars or have oil, natural gas or coal, obviously not the United States. Once those countries have access to EV or even hybrids, they can begin to claim carbon neutrality or even negative balance. The may not need nuclear either.
 

bladerunner6

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Utility scale battery storage doesn't work. One 35 MW project in Austrailia caught fire. Another one in California cost $400 million to store 400 MW for 4 hours. It isn't working right and runs at 25% capacity. Remember, at 4 hours and one minute it's useless. Wind and solar run about one third of the time. Batteries will not get cities through the other two thirds. Renewables need a lot of land. In the densly populated areas there isn't enough land. So people say put them offshore but those cost 4 times as much.
There sattelite solar is being explored. It's a great solution if it can be made to work. However, the wind, terrestial solar battery solution is an unfortunate illusion because so many people think it will work. I se all kinds of ideas but they are unbelievably expsensive.

In the US renewables are heavily subsidized. There isn't enough money in the world to completely get rid of natural gas.
Saying utility scale storage doesn’t work is a red herring. First of all we are in the infancy of these technologies and we have a long way before they are mature. Talking about current difficulties is ignoring that technology advances.

Watch “Downton Abbey” and see how they talk about telephones, cars and electricity. They would find our world all but magical.

Also, we have something called a power grid that allows for electricity to be sent over a long distance so your comments about densely populated areas are irrelevant.

Also, carbon takes lot of space: the powerplants, the oil and gad fields,pipelines, coal mines, etc.

As for subsidies, carbon and nuclear are also subsidized.

Some day carbon sources are going to be no longer economically viable.

We need to look at the next technology instead of making faster steam engines or breeding faster horses.
 

Ron Texas

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I guess you missed the part where I said Countries that don't make cars or have oil, natural gas or coal, obviously not the United States. Once those countries have access to EV or even hybrids, they can begin to claim carbon neutrality or even negative balance. The may not need nuclear either.
Name a country and tell me how they will decarbonize their grid. I can think of only 3, France, Norway and Iceland.

I did not miss anything you wrote. Don't lecture me either. The only thing which matters is the global energy balance. It's nice for a few countries to declare victory, but it makes little difference. You are missing that.
 

Ron Texas

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All sorts o

Saying utility scale storage doesn’t work is a red herring. First of all we are in the infancy of these technologies and we have a long way before they are mature. Talking about current difficulties is ignoring that technology advances.

Watch “Downton Abbey” and see how they talk about telephones, cars and electricity. They would find our world all but magical.

Also, we have something called a power grid that allows for electricity to be sent over a long distance so your comments about densely populated areas are irrelevant.

As for subsidies, carbon and nuclear are also subsidized.

Some day carbon sources are going to be no longer economically viable.

We need to look at the next technology instead of making faster steam engines or breeding faster horses.
Utility scale battery storage doesn't work now. What do you plan on doing right now? It's not a red herring. It's reality. Sorry there so many dreamers here. I'm out of this discussion.
 

JeffS7444

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Panasonic is releasing a new battery in the next year that is supposed to have a big improvement in the total amount of charge. Perhaps fewer cells could be used or use the same amount and get longer range.

"Panasonic, which revealed a prototype of its new 4680 battery cell. Automotive News reports that the advanced-technology battery is due to power future Teslas, saying the 4680 batteries will have five times the storage capacity of current Tesla battery packs and will cost 50 percent less to build."
It doesn't appear to have higher energy density than previously.
 

Timcognito

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I guess in the mysterious place people don't have solar on their roofs (maybe its underground). Mine does despite what is said, I get through the night on whole house battery with no utility input. Tesla assured me it won't catch fire. I think economics not global warming will electrify the planet, you don't have to dig the sun out of the ground.
 

acetogen

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Name a country and tell me how they will decarbonize their grid. I can think of only 3, France, Norway and Iceland.

I did not miss anything you wrote. Don't lecture me either. The only thing which matters is the global energy balance. It's nice for a few countries to declare victory, but it makes little difference. You are missing that.
Matters to whom?

My folks are retired in Costa Rica, and the country uses oil only for transportation and a few industries, not many. If most of Latin America and Africa claim they can accomplish being neutral in CO2 emissions, then the argument for fossil fuel intensive economies for decarbonization wilI be made stronger.
 

Ron Texas

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I guess in the mysterious place people don't have solar on their roofs (maybe its underground). Mine does despite what is said, I get through the night on whole house battery with no utility input. Tesla assured me it won't catch fire. I think economics not global warming will electrify the planet, you don't have to dig the sun out of the ground.
Not everyone has a place to put solar panels. You probably have mild weather year round which allows you to get by. It's different in Houston, Phoenix and Miami where air conditioning is required from mid April through mid October.
 

Ron Texas

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Matters to whom?

My folks are retired in Costa Rica, and the country uses oil only for transportation and a few industries, not many. If most of Latin America and Africa claim they can accomplish being neutral in CO2 emissions, then the argument for fossil fuel intensive economies for decarbonization wilI be made stronger.
Costa Rica has mild weather. It's nice for a few countries to declare victory, but we all live in the same atmosphere.
 

acetogen

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Costa Rica has mild weather. It's nice for a few countries to declare victory, but we all live in the same atmosphere.
BY far most countries in the global south have only 2 seasons, the CO2 emission problem is basically China, India, US, Canada and some European countries. More industrialization necessarily leads to more emissions. This is why the only solution is CO2 capture, but the technology is not available today, not at least in the scale needed in those places. The majority of the countries can just plant more trees.
 

Timcognito

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Solar hot water systems use turbines to generate electricity at night. LEDs drop lighting cost by 80%. Economics will drive the electrification of the planet. The wind and sun are almost everywhere and are free to use. The wires to deliver it are on virtually every street no gas station needed.
 

Ron Texas

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BY far most countries in the global south have only 2 seasons, the CO2 emission problem is basically China, India, US, Canada and some European countries. More industrialization necessarily leads to more emissions. This is why the only solution is CO2 capture, but the technology is not available today, not at least in the scale needed in those places. The majority of the countries can just plant more trees.
Thank you for recognizing Costa Rica has very little industry. I was there just before the pandemic started.

CO2 capture is wildly expensive. Using cheap geothermal energy in Iceland and with unexpectedly good results from locking CO2 into rock formations the cost is $600 to $800 per ton. Using methods developed by the Obama administration the cost of carbon is $46 per ton. The US DOE built a coal generating station with carbon capture. It cost 5 times what a typical coal plant cost. It doesn't work very well and a carbon capture project in Western Australia has produced disappointing results.

It may not be 100% clean, but switching from coal to natural gas produces a 60% drop in CO2.

Decarbonization is very expensive without nuclear power. Jim Hansen, the NASA scientist who first sounded the alarm has said it can't be done without nuclear power.
 

Timcognito

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Nuclear power is an interim solution that should not be ignored. The problem is that it has lost its appeal with the public and the infrastructure takes so long to implement. It has been demonstrated to work safely in France as Ron said.
 

Blumlein 88

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There is the Thanos solution.

Then the Azimov/Musk solution.
 
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