Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[kongwee]

When saying EV have no net environment benefit, you can alway can compare at China PM2.5 at 2013 and now.

 

[j_j]

As for it being established that net environmental benefits of EVs are pretty much zero, but somehow the rest of us aren't privy to your info?

It's his claim, he needs to support it, this old "prove me wrong" game is really tiresome.

In response I say "It is established that the core of the moon is made of green cheese." Prove me wrong.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It's his claim, he needs to support it, this old "prove me wrong" game is really tiresome.

In response I say "It is established that the core of the moon is made of green cheese." Prove me wrong.

Actually, the Apollo missions all left seismometers on the moon and we can establish the moon's core is not green cheese.

Of course some people still say those missions were faked...........

While I'm at it, I don't have any definitive info on Russel's teapot, but there is a Tesla Roadster floating out there orbiting the sun somewhere.

 

[j_j]

Actually, the Apollo missions all left seismometers on the moon and we can establish the moon's core is not green cheese.

Of course some people still say those missions were faked...........

While I'm at it, I don't have any definitive info on Russel's teapot, but there is a Tesla Roadster floating out there orbiting the sun somewhere.

Now now, you can't tell that there is ABSOLUTELY no green cheese there! The outside is rigid, obviously, but you can't PROVE there isn't a bit somewhere!

 

[Blumlein 88]

Now now, you can't tell that there is ABSOLUTELY no green cheese there! The outside is rigid, obviously, but you can't PROVE there isn't a bit somewhere!

Moving the goalposts! You said the core was green cheese.

 

[j_j]

Moving the goalposts! You said the core was green cheese.

I didn't say Hooooowwwww muuuuuuchhhhhhh!!!!!!

 

[Frank Dernie]

it is established that the net environmental benefits of EVs are pretty much zero,

Not by anybody credible that I have seen it isn't

 

[MediumRare]

Regarding apples-to-apples emissions: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
Regarding minerals and manufacturing, it’s more complicated. Also, the mineral sources and content of batteries is changing rapidly, with the intention of moving to lower impacts: https://blog.evbox.com/electric-cars-environmental-impact

 

[Blumlein 88]

Regarding apples-to-apples emissions: https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
Regarding minerals and manufacturing, it’s more complicated. Also, the mineral sources and content of batteries is changing rapidly, with the intention of moving to lower impacts: https://blog.evbox.com/electric-cars-environmental-impact

I had posted maybe in this thread or another this calculator which is very informative for the USA at least. From your link.

Beyond Tailpipe Emissions

This calculator allows you to estimate the total GHG emissions that would be associated with operating an electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, including GHG emissions from the production and distribution of electricity used to power the vehicle.

www.fueleconomy.gov

 

[beefkabob]

I love how, even on coal power, EVs are cleaner.

I do drive much, much faster in my EVs. Even so, there's no comparison in efficiency. I haven't filled a gas tank since December but I did have to spend some time recently at a supercharger.

 

[Timcognito]

So what value is there in your post in the context of this thread?

There was a lot discussion on taxes, deficit spending, and EV subsidies. Just laying some groundwork on the the international tax situation. Just background for my post #3046. A lot of nice electric vehicles coming out of N. America, Asia and Europe all having different tax structures and types of assistance from disparate governments.

 

[pseudoid]

On the way to satisfying our developing appetite for EVs, the collateral (unintentional) damage has been done to the viability of the hybrids and that's sad.
For the past 5 years, the writing has been on the wall, even for Akio Toyoda, since he recently conceded his Chair to the Toyota "CBO"
[Yeah, that B would be for Branding; like fashion-wear for those who like shiny objects and staring eyeballs...

I understand the desire of EVs' convenience and acceleration, but the antagonist in me has yet to acquiesce to the excessive claims of saving the planet by them.
I dispute the answer being from a selection of a binary choice (ice/ev).

Another sad casualty of our current insatiable EV appetite is the so-called "Car Culture":
Drive-ins, stick-shifts, back-seats, gear-heads, after-market, resto-mods, NASCAR, Route-66, fuzzy-dice, HotWheels, socket-wrenches...???

Along our path to that EV-nirvana, en-masse, another promising technology has also bit the dust: Synth-fuels?
It is becoming scorched-earth more scorched but such relevant discussions are being totally ignored.

Even "YMMV" becomes a moot point (re: EVs)...!

 

[Frank Dernie]

Synth-fuels?

An ex colleague of mine is involved in the synth fuels industry.
It seems the process he is involved with uses a lot of energy so it is located near hydroelectric power somewhere in Scotland.
Reading between the lines it seems it is likely only to be used to justify the continued use of IC engines in motor racing - which is bonkers anyway the racing cars use far less fuel then the spectator’s cars, rather than being a viable price competitive fuel.
Agri fuels are a non starter since we don’t actually have enough worldwide food so converting some of it to fuel is stupid.
For me the big benefit of EVs is how much better they are than IC engined cars in the first place

I did start with a hybrid though and have been happy with plug in hybrids as my normal car for the last 10 years with local journeys almost never being long enough for the noisy bit to ever run. I put 10 gallons of fuel in 2 or 3 times a year.

 

[Blumlein 88]

On the way to satisfying our developing appetite for EVs, the collateral (unintentional) damage has been done to the viability of the hybrids and that's sad.
For the past 5 years, the writing has been on the wall, even for Akio Toyoda, since he recently conceded his Chair to the Toyota "CBO"
[Yeah, that B would be for Branding; like fashion-wear for those who like shiny objects and staring eyeballs...

I understand the desire of EVs' convenience and acceleration, but the antagonist in me has yet to acquiesce to the excessive claims of saving the planet by them.
I dispute the answer being from a selection of a binary choice (ice/ev).

Another sad casualty of our current insatiable EV appetite is the so-called "Car Culture":
Drive-ins, stick-shifts, back-seats, gear-heads, after-market, resto-mods, NASCAR, Route-66, fuzzy-dice, HotWheels, socket-wrenches...???
View attachment 270123
Along our path to that EV-nirvana, en-masse, another promising technology has also bit the dust: Synth-fuels?
It is becoming scorched-earth more scorched but such relevant discussions are being totally ignored.

Even "YMMV" becomes a moot point (re: EVs)...!

All depends on whether you look forward or look back. EV conversions of vintage cars is going to be big. They are already being done. Unless you are trying to keep such car original, EVs are an even better deal than for regular cars. You don't usually drive it everyday, or far. Which means no need to worry about stale fuel or changing oil even if you've barely driven your old car. Not to mention easy power that doesn't break things. An EV vintage car or custom car has it all over the ICE version. No stick shift (though you could do one), you won't get the sound. Otherwise it probably is all pluses. It sure doesn't do away with back seats, fuzzy dice or socket wrenches. And there will be new gear heads who make them faster, more powerful or stronger than stock EVs given a chance. So it won't be the same, but I don't see it going away due to EVs. Now cars in general haven't had the attraction for recent generations they once did ICE or otherwise.

As for hybrids, they were efficient, but at best they were a bridge technology. I've even wondered if a slightly larger Atkinson cycle engine in a Prius wouldn't give about the same fuel economy without the complication.

I'm still hoping some reasonable fuel cell vehicle gets figured out. EVs even help with that as you'll be replacing the battery with the fuel cell. So aspects of electric drivetrains should carry over.

 

[pseudoid]

@Doodski did not limit us from the discussions about other EV' social impact.
There is also scant discussions about the deplorable state of the electric grids... and not just limited US infra-structure un-sustainability... even without the EV charging needs that are being rolled out.

 

[Timcognito]

There is also scant discussions about the deplorable state of the electric grids... and not just limited US infra-structure un-sustainability... even without the EV charging needs that are being rolled out.

Congress just passed and infrastructure bill in the US to spend billions on just that. My feeling is that as solar and wind energy adds supply the the utilities will be happy to find ways to get it to paying customers that need it and as justification to keep their current plants operating.

 

[pseudoid]

Congress just passed and infrastructure bill in the US to spend billions on just that. My feeling is that as solar and wind energy adds supply the the utilities will be happy to find ways to get it to paying customers that need it and as justification to keep their current plants operating.

erm... is that bill like the 'shovel-ready' jobs which had nothing to do with shovels or readiness?
erm... This bill must be the reason why California is moving to phase out all gas appliances; so that we can put all our bets on an electric grid which has been known to issue out "rolling brown black-outs".
We may have only one standing nuclear plant (Diablo Canyon) that got a life extension by our GovAwesome but the ugly truth of the matter is that CA continues to purchase a lot of its energy from out of state. Sustainable?

 

[Timcognito]

erm... is that bill like the 'shovel-ready' jobs which had nothing to do with shovels or readiness?
erm... This bill must be the reason why California is moving to phase out all gas appliances; so that we can put all our bets on an electric grid which has been known to issue out "rolling brown black-outs".
We may have only one standing nuclear plant (Diablo Canyon) that got a life extension by our GovAwesome but the ugly truth of the matter is that CA continues to purchase a lot of its energy from out of state. Sustainable?
View attachment 270133

Yeah but we got a lot sun and wind and this year a lot of water. Not sure about SoCal but the power outages in NorCal were from weather and preventing wild fires.

 

[pseudoid]

Elsewhere, from a recent and reputable source, it was written that 1% of them global-warming byproducts can be attributable to California.
Let's let the above sink in for a bit and you may wonder if I am talking about politics/subsidies. Nyet.
I am back to the social costs of picking winners and losers (ice/ev ev/ice) and I am inclined to think that the cost of energy to the California consumers is over-bearing although the intent is not going to make a dent for the world's environmental/existential threat even if every Californian was to be limited to walking only.

 

[Timcognito]

Elsewhere, from a recent and reputable source, it was written that 1% of them global-warming byproducts can be attributable to California.
Let's let the above sink in for a bit and you may wonder if I am talking about politics/subsidies. Nyet.
I am back to the social costs of picking winners and losers (ice/ev ev/ice) and I am inclined to think that the cost of energy to the California consumers is over-bearing although the intent is not going to make a dent for the world's environmental/existential threat even if every Californian was to be limited to walking only.

With my solar panels and whole house battery I was a net electric energy producer in 2022 including an electric dryer and I live 300 ft from the Pacific Ocean with lots of fog. New electric heat pumps are more efficient that NG furnaces and heat as well as cool. Non combusting sources of energy will dramatically reduce the pace of global warming.