Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[Martin]

Wasn't intending on buying an EV for another few years at the earliest. But had a test drive in one of these and placed an order immediately:

View attachment 269876

I absolutely loved it! 2.5 tonnes, but suprisingly nimble around town. Superb driving position due to lack of bonnet/hood at front. Very low centre of gravity for a large(ish) vehicle.

The only downside... a 12-18 month wait .

Mani.

I preordered my Rivian R1S on January 6, 2022 and the current anticipated delivery date is the first half of 2024.

The VW ID.Buzz is not yet availble for preorder here in the US and won't come her until 2024 at the earliest.

Martin

 

[manisandher]

I preordered my Rivian R1S on January 6, 2022 and the current anticipated delivery date is the first half of 2024.

The VW ID.Buzz is not yet availble for preorder here in the US and won't come her until 2024 at the earliest.

Hopefully, the infrastucture would have improved by then (we've got a long way to go here in the UK).

Mani.

 

[Timcognito]

The big question that occurs to me is: if we were to allow capitalism to function with regards to electric vehicles, how successful would their sales be? Without government intervention - in the form of rebates, manipulation of fuel prices to discourage consumption, surcharges on ICE, etc.

Toyota was doing fine before incentives with hybrids, enough so that that the other majors started really funding their electrification programs.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Toyota was doing fine before incentives with hybrids, enough so that that the other majors started really funding their electrification programs.

I think hybrids are the best option at present. What would be ideal for me is for Honda to offer the Ridgeline in hybrid and retain the 5000 pound towing capability.

 

[Marc v E]

The big question that occurs to me is: if we were to allow capitalism to function with regards to electric vehicles, how successful would their sales be? Without government intervention - in the form of rebates, manipulation of fuel prices to discourage consumption, surcharges on ICE, etc.

Imo we are already past the point that evs would do well without subsidies.

The first milestone in my country was reached a few years ago when leasing a model 3 was cheaper than an equivalent ice car, due to lower maintenance costs.

The upfront cost is still high though, making it a barrier for consumers.

Concerning your question: if the Inflation Reduction Act weren't there OEMs would see no incentive to change. That would mean Tesla, Chinese evs and Korean evs would dominate the market. Imo that would mean that by the time the upfront cost of an ev would challenge ice cars, the old manufacturers would see their sales declining to the point of bankruptcy.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Concerning your question: if the Inflation Reduction Act weren't there OEMs would see no incentive to change. That would mean Tesla, Chinese evs and Korean evs would dominate the market. Imo that would mean that by the time the upfront cost of an ev would challenge ice cars, the old manufacturers would see their sales declining to the point of bankruptcy.

I do not believe your statement about the impact of the ”inflation reduction act” can be proven. There has been no “control” to make it a valid “experiment“. More likely, the big automakers that took government money after the financial crisis of 2008, were just waiting on the next government handout or incentive to bring out EV’s. Tesla has the most experience, so they would be the first place I would look when purchasing an EV.
You mentioned leasing a Model 3, were you comparing it to a ICE lease or a purchase?

 

[symphara]

Out of curiosity, looked up your vehicle. Fancy Living! Found the below on the web - which, if true, explains why you cannot run in full electric on cold days at first.
--------------
Cold engine oil. If the engine oil is below about 40 degrees, the car will start the engine regardless of battery state. The precise figures are in the e-Hybrid supplement. The cutoff temperature is higher for the first 2000 miles or so.

Interesting but it cannot be right. On cold start, basically irrespective of the weather, the oil will always be under 40 degrees.

What I see on cold days (under 4degC) is that it starts on electric but after a few minutes it starts the ICE and doesn't turn it off as per normal hybrid driving. There's an icon on the dash too, a blue thing which seems to be an engine icon with a thermometer but it's small so not 100% sure.

 

[DudleyDuoflush]

Government strategies vary a great deal across the globe.
If you are interested in this aspect i am sure you can find a broad range of approaches, from lots of subsidy to none.

Edit
Here in the UK there are tax loopholes to allow businesses and employees to pay less tax for an EV.
A retired person like me had no tax or other incentives to buy my car.
Tax loopholes piss me off

It's not a loophole, it's an incentive and has put 1000s of EVs on the road.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Interesting but it cannot be right. On cold start, basically irrespective of the weather, the oil will always be under 40 degrees.

What I see on cold days (under 4degC) is that it starts on electric but after a few minutes it starts the ICE and doesn't turn it off as per normal hybrid driving. There's an icon on the dash too, a blue thing which seems to be an engine icon with a thermometer but it's small so not 100% sure.

Since the hit I found used “miles” I suspect 40 degrees is Fahrenheit, not Celsius. Sounds like I misunderstood your original post.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Assuming the batteries are Lithium Ion, there is a lower limit to temperature where they operate or can be charged. Some batteries self heat to avoid this issue.

EVs have a temperature control circuit capable of warming as well as cooling so the battery can be warmed to an optimum temperature for driving and, in my car’s case, if there is a charger on the route plan the car warms the battery to optimum charge temperature in time for arrival there. It works very well, it does mean the temperature control circuit is more complex than for an IC engine, but the motor and transmission themselves are many times simpler.
Even trickle charging at home the battery is warmed by the system In winter.

 

[symphara]

Since the hit I found used “miles” I suspect 40 degrees is Fahrenheit, not Celsius. Sounds like I misunderstood your original post.

Sorry I hadn't noticed that. It makes sense but the car doesn't behave exactly like that. It does start in EV mode but, like I said, after a while it starts the ICE and from that point on it basically drives as if in Sport mode.

 

[Marc v E]

You mentioned leasing a Model 3, were you comparing it to a ICE lease or a purchase?

Compared to an Ice lease.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Compared to an Ice lease.

Never done a lease, as I tend to keep my vehicles more than 10 years unless they have service issues.

 

[Bob from Florida]

It's not a loophole, it's an incentive and has put 1000s of EVs on the road.

Apparently not an incentive for Frank due to his work status. Where does the money come from to provide the incentives?

 

[Marc v E]

Never done a lease, as I tend to keep my vehicles more that 10 years unless have service issues.

Then an ev will probably be cheaper for you too if you purchase one. Total cost of ownership is lower due to significantly lower cost of maintenance and running costs (about 50% so I'm told). The tests I've seen say a turning point is at about 5 years of ownership, depending on purchase price and number of miles driven. The more miles you drive the sooner you'll get there.

 

[MediumRare]

Apparently not an incentive for Frank due to his work status. Where does the money come from to provide the incentives?

From the taxes the 1.7 million employees of the OEMs and their suppliers pay and the profit the OEMs and their suppliers make - and the 7-fold velocity of money that the companies and their employees generates and all the taxes from that economic activity.

Also from the reduced expenses of asthma (currently $80 billion annually) across the economy, which is significantly caused by traffic-related polution.

Or you could allow the entire North American auto industry to fade away as BYD, Geely, Hyundai, Daimler, BMW, Volkswagen, CATL, Panasonic, LG and Samsung take all the business with manufacturing in Asia. [Fun fact: German car companies produce more cars in China than in Germany, as they have since 2019.]

 

[Bob from Florida]

From the taxes the 1.7 million employees of the OEMs and their suppliers pay and the profit the OEMs and their suppliers make - and the 7-fold velocity of money that the companies and their employees generates and all the taxes from that economic activity.

Also from the reduced expenses of asthma (currently $80 billion annually) across the economy, which is significantly caused by traffic-related polution.

Or you could allow the entire North American auto industry to fade away as BYD, Geely, Hyundai, Daimler, BMW, Volkswagen, CATL, Panasonic, LG and Samsung take all the business with manufacturing in Asia. [Fun fact: German car companies produce more cars in China than in Germany, as they have since 2019.]

The reality is the government is financing this by way of deficit spending as the USA does not currently have a balanced budget. Not providing incentives does not mean the auto industry will “fade away”. It simply means consumers will buy what they want. If that is EV’s, then any auto maker wanting to stay in business will produce what the consumer wants - at a price that is attractive.

Sounds like you are convinced the world must make the switch as soon as possible. I am not convinced yet and think hybrids are the best “bridge” for now. Should gasoline fuel cells become practical, that would be another route.

 

[j_j]

I have a Miata as a 2nd car for a fun drop top sports car. Also it is not so powerful as to tempt me into doing something stupid while having fun. Funny thing, I've always referred to my cars in how many hours you feel comfortable driving them. The Miata is a 2 hour car to me. Certainly after 2 1/2 hrs. you are just ready to get out of it for awhile. I've found when traveling you'll feel a whole lot better to stop for at least 15 minutes every 2 hours. If they made it in an EV with 200 mile range it would probably be enough.

Indeed. The Mazda 3 is about a 3 hour car for me, so I tend to stop at lots of rest areas, etc, and get out, stretch, pester pokestops (sorry!) with my phone, look around, take photos, etc. It would have been an 8 hour car 20 years ago. So it goes.

We also are a much smaller country than the US so for me the standard long trips are 225 miles to visit my daughter in North Wales and 500+ miles visiting family in the north of Scotland. The latter is a huge trip in the UK but not in the US I would guess.

Yeah. London-Edinburgh is a long ways in the UK (Well there's always Penzance->John O'Groats, I suppose.) and that's "just getting started" here in the USA. This would seem to really make EV's handy in the UK to me, frankly. I wonder when B&B's will start offering charger slots.

 

[DudleyDuoflush]

The reality is the government is financing this by way of deficit spending as the USA does not currently have a balanced budget. Not providing incentives does not mean the auto industry will “fade away”. It simply means consumers will buy what they want. If that is EV’s, then any auto maker wanting to stay in business will produce what the consumer wants - at a price that is attractive.

Sounds like you are convinced the world must make the switch as soon as possible. I am not convinced yet and think hybrids are the best “bridge” for now. Should gasoline fuel cells become practical, that would be another rout

Apparently not an incentive for Frank due to his work status. Where does the money come from to provide the incentives?

The company car tax situation in the UK is a bit bonkers. If I'd kept my diesel BMW the tax would've been more than the lease!

 

[Bob from Florida]

The company car tax situation in the UK is a bit bonkers. If I'd kept my diesel BMW the tax would've been more than the lease!

Wow!