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Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

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Blumlein 88

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Wow, the debate goes on & on. The issue of EVs comes up regularly on another audio forum I visit, and it's amazing the resistance I see to EVs -- every sort of cherry-picked factoid spun against the EV concept.

One amazing titbit is that some EV objectors are touting fuel cell vehicles. One even pushes the idea of natural gas fuel cells :oops:, though most a talking about hydrogen fuel cell. Vis-à-vis hydrogen fuels cells, for me, a non-expert, couple of qualms come to mind:
  1. To be "green" hydrogen must be electrolyzed with a green energy source such as wind. In this scenario, at best, hydrogen may be seen as a way to store excess renewable energy produced off peak hours. Fine, but then exactly the same may be said of EV batteries where they are charge over night at the owners' homes.
  2. Hydrogen to drive the fuel cells would require a new or vastly revised distribution infrastructure replacing the gasoline filling stations we see today on every other corner.
I like to see myself as a low energy, green energy, and EV advocate but feel hypocritical doing so. My family lives in a house heated with natural gas and we get around only in two ICE vehicles. We do use air conditioning extensively in summer and we get our energy exclusively from the grid. The only good news is that our electricity is generated mostly by nuclear, hydro, and after that, by wind; (see the graph below).

Sadly I don't see any easy way out of our personal fossil trap. Our furnace and AC are fairly new replacing with, say, a heat pump, would be a huge capital cost with payback like likely to exceed my limited remaining lifespan. Regarding our ICE cars, it's similar: they both have a few years remaining in their reliable lifespans and we aren't going to replace them for the sake of "virtue signaling", (as some might say). One car might be up for replacement in 2-3 years and we shall if EV prices are much reduced.

on-fg02.png
All of this is normal. It is why it takes one or two generations for significant energy transitions. I've got the same issue in regard to EV's. I like them, likely will own one at some time. But my current vehicle is good for a few more years and the cost to go buy a new EV doesn't make financial sense. I do have a heat pump and it is nice saves me money versus having an AC and natural gas heat. A few people are early adapters, and over time if it makes economic sense people will purchase differently.
 

j_j

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All of this is normal. It is why it takes one or two generations for significant energy transitions. I've got the same issue in regard to EV's. I like them, likely will own one at some time. But my current vehicle is good for a few more years and the cost to go buy a new EV doesn't make financial sense. I do have a heat pump and it is nice saves me money versus having an AC and natural gas heat. A few people are early adapters, and over time if it makes economic sense people will purchase differently.

Indeed, hence my comment I will probably have one more ICE automobile for distance travel. The next after that will almost certainly be in-town plug-in EV.
 

Frank Dernie

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I don't know if your ears were ringing earlier today, during the Bahrain F1 Practice3.
Nico Rosberg (et al) spoke very fondly of you and your mug shot was on SkyTV.
;)
I'm afraid I don't have a Sky subscription so only "watch" the race using the F1 timing screens, which were the same as I used on the pit wall. I can read the race pretty well from that and the commentators tend to miss quite a lot of what is going on IME.
Nice to hear I had some nice comments though!
Nico's Dad is on my Avatar of course :)
 

Frank Dernie

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I have had my EV for 3 months now.
I have been what is sometimes called a "petrol head" here since my teens and worked most of my career in Formula 1 motor racing. I originally chose a plug in hybrid as a cheap to run car but liked the throttle response it has in EV mode so much I started to take an interest in fully electric.
The battery was and is the biggest concern but there is so much total bollox about EVs on the internet it is shocking, but strong views spread by people failing to understand is grist for the internet mill, sadly.

Anyway the people winging most about EVs have either zero or very small experience of EVs and didn't make any effort (or were to uneducated to understand) the way batteries function IME/IMO.

Before I bought mine I had checked out the charge curve, which showed that letting the battery run low then charging to 80% (where it is still capable of absorbing 150kW) or so made the most sense.
Anybody sitting at a charger waiting to get to 100% is ignorant and foolish. I charge to 100% at home on the trickle charger whilst asleep if I am going a long way then plan my route around fast chargers, planning to stop every 2 hours or so for a cup of tea.
IME arriving at the charger, plugging in, going to the cafe, ordering and consuming the tea then walking back to the car has so far always resulted in enough charge to get to my next planned stop, I only look at the charge level on the app when I finish my tea to make sure I have enough to get to the next charger. So far I always have had and have never had to wait at all.
Porsche-Taycan charge curve.png


Having written that I don't travel often on motorways at all so haven't experienced the problem of fully occupied chargers on busy pre-holiday travel days, which would be annoying, but I have queued for petrol too on those days in the past.

I chose my car for its performance, a lot of that is thanks to it being an EV.

I looked into charging and charge locations in a way I never did with petrol pumps but that was me self educating. Overall I have spent spectacularly less time recharging my car away from home than I would have spent standing at a smelly petrol pump refuelling my sporty V8 cars in the past so it is a massive win for me.
It also has silence and the broad power curve that makes it so much superior than a turbo petrol engine to drive.

It is the best car I have ever driven.

Having written all that though I do still have an open 2-seater with a screaming N/A IC engine and no driver aids for short journey fun. The petrol head in me still loves the sound but only for a short thrash, on long journeys it is tiring. The EV has a faux sporty sound option but on the test drive I only put up with it for less than a minute then switched it off.
 

DudleyDuoflush

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I have had my EV for 3 months now.
I have been what is sometimes called a "petrol head" here since my teens and worked most of my career in Formula 1 motor racing. I originally chose a plug in hybrid as a cheap to run car but liked the throttle response it has in EV mode so much I started to take an interest in fully electric.
The battery was and is the biggest concern but there is so much total bollox about EVs on the internet it is shocking, but strong views spread by people failing to understand is grist for the internet mill, sadly.

Anyway the people winging most about EVs have either zero or very small experience of EVs and didn't make any effort (or were to uneducated to understand) the way batteries function IME/IMO.

Before I bought mine I had checked out the charge curve, which showed that letting the battery run low then charging to 80% (where it is still capable of absorbing 150kW) or so made the most sense.
Anybody sitting at a charger waiting to get to 100% is ignorant and foolish. I charge to 100% at home on the trickle charger whilst asleep if I am going a long way then plan my route around fast chargers, planning to stop every 2 hours or so for a cup of tea.
IME arriving at the charger, plugging in, going to the cafe, ordering and consuming the tea then walking back to the car has so far always resulted in enough charge to get to my next planned stop, I only look at the charge level on the app when I finish my tea to make sure I have enough to get to the next charger. So far I always have had and have never had to wait at all.
View attachment 269833

Having written that I don't travel often on motorways at all so haven't experienced the problem of fully occupied chargers on busy pre-holiday travel days, which would be annoying, but I have queued for petrol too on those days in the past.

I chose my car for its performance, a lot of that is thanks to it being an EV.

I looked into charging and charge locations in a way I never did with petrol pumps but that was me self educating. Overall I have spent spectacularly less time recharging my car away from home than I would have spent standing at a smelly petrol pump refuelling my sporty V8 cars in the past so it is a massive win for me.
It also has silence and the broad power curve that makes it so much superior than a turbo petrol engine to drive.

It is the best car I have ever driven.

Having written all that though I do still have an open 2-seater with a screaming N/A IC engine and no driver aids for short journey fun. The petrol head in me still loves the sound but only for a short thrash, on long journeys it is tiring. The EV has a faux sporty sound option but on the test drive I only put up with it for less than a minute then switched it off.
As you say most of the people bemoaning the practicalities of an EV don't own one. I've had mine 2 years now and have covered 58k miles all over the UK and a few trips to Spain. The vast majority of my charging has been done at home and I've never really had an issue charging on long trips (Tesla). The service cost has been the thing that has really surprised me - £66.90 and that's only because I thought I should get a check up after 2 years.

I think the thing that may stall EVs in the near future is the cost of electricity. An EV is much more expensive to buy so if the running costs approach an ICE a major incentive goes away. In the UK company car tax incentives may keep some of the momentum but these can't last much longer.
 

Frank Dernie

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As you say most of the people bemoaning the practicalities of an EV don't own one. I've had mine 2 years now and have covered 58k miles all over the UK and a few trips to Spain. The vast majority of my charging has been done at home and I've never really had an issue charging on long trips (Tesla). The service cost has been the thing that has really surprised me - £66.90 and that's only because I thought I should get a check up after 2 years.

I think the thing that may stall EVs in the near future is the cost of electricity. An EV is much more expensive to buy so if the running costs approach an ICE a major incentive goes away. In the UK company car tax incentives may keep some of the momentum but these can't last much longer.
Yes much more expensive to charge than I had hoped but still way less than equivalent performance petrol or diesel cars.
I don't approve of tax loopholes (since I am not eligible for any ;)) so if they stop that would be fine by me...
My EV was expensive but not compared to IC engined Porsches actually, I bought it because I liked it to drive and low pollution rather than to save money..
 
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Blumlein 88

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I have had my EV for 3 months now.
I have been what is sometimes called a "petrol head" here since my teens and worked most of my career in Formula 1 motor racing. I originally chose a plug in hybrid as a cheap to run car but liked the throttle response it has in EV mode so much I started to take an interest in fully electric.
The battery was and is the biggest concern but there is so much total bollox about EVs on the internet it is shocking, but strong views spread by people failing to understand is grist for the internet mill, sadly.

Anyway the people winging most about EVs have either zero or very small experience of EVs and didn't make any effort (or were to uneducated to understand) the way batteries function IME/IMO.

Before I bought mine I had checked out the charge curve, which showed that letting the battery run low then charging to 80% (where it is still capable of absorbing 150kW) or so made the most sense.
Anybody sitting at a charger waiting to get to 100% is ignorant and foolish. I charge to 100% at home on the trickle charger whilst asleep if I am going a long way then plan my route around fast chargers, planning to stop every 2 hours or so for a cup of tea.
IME arriving at the charger, plugging in, going to the cafe, ordering and consuming the tea then walking back to the car has so far always resulted in enough charge to get to my next planned stop, I only look at the charge level on the app when I finish my tea to make sure I have enough to get to the next charger. So far I always have had and have never had to wait at all.
View attachment 269833

Having written that I don't travel often on motorways at all so haven't experienced the problem of fully occupied chargers on busy pre-holiday travel days, which would be annoying, but I have queued for petrol too on those days in the past.

I chose my car for its performance, a lot of that is thanks to it being an EV.

I looked into charging and charge locations in a way I never did with petrol pumps but that was me self educating. Overall I have spent spectacularly less time recharging my car away from home than I would have spent standing at a smelly petrol pump refuelling my sporty V8 cars in the past so it is a massive win for me.
It also has silence and the broad power curve that makes it so much superior than a turbo petrol engine to drive.

It is the best car I have ever driven.

Having written all that though I do still have an open 2-seater with a screaming N/A IC engine and no driver aids for short journey fun. The petrol head in me still loves the sound but only for a short thrash, on long journeys it is tiring. The EV has a faux sporty sound option but on the test drive I only put up with it for less than a minute then switched it off.
I have a Miata as a 2nd car for a fun drop top sports car. Also it is not so powerful as to tempt me into doing something stupid while having fun. Funny thing, I've always referred to my cars in how many hours you feel comfortable driving them. The Miata is a 2 hour car to me. Certainly after 2 1/2 hrs. you are just ready to get out of it for awhile. I've found when traveling you'll feel a whole lot better to stop for at least 15 minutes every 2 hours. If they made it in an EV with 200 mile range it would probably be enough.

Somewhat surprisingly for traveling the C5 Corvette I consider a 6 hr car. Of course if I consumed 2 to 3 liters of tea, I'll stop at least every 2 hours either way. :)
 

Frank Dernie

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I have a Miata as a 2nd car for a fun drop top sports car. Also it is not so powerful as to tempt me into doing something stupid while having fun. Funny thing, I've always referred to my cars in how many hours you feel comfortable driving them. The Miata is a 2 hour car to me. Certainly after 2 1/2 hrs. you are just ready to get out of it for awhile. I've found when traveling you'll feel a whole lot better to stop for at least 15 minutes every 2 hours. If they made it in an EV with 200 mile range it would probably be enough.

Somewhat surprisingly for traveling the C5 Corvette I consider a 6 hr car. Of course if I consumed 2 to 3 liters of tea, I'll stop at least every 2 hours either way. :)
We also are a much smaller country than the US so for me the standard long trips are 225 miles to visit my daughter in North Wales and 500+ miles visiting family in the north of Scotland. The latter is a huge trip in the UK but not in the US I would guess.
 

FrantzM

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Good Day to all.

Naive question perhaps: Why do EVs are (seem to be) more expensive than their ICE counterparts?

Peace.
 

MediumRare

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The battery costs tens of thousands.
But also the limited production capacity allowed OEMs to produce only the highest value units. That is changing massively now and next year you will see "parity" and the fuel and service cost savings will be the gravy on top. EVs are actually much easier (lower cost labor and hours) to build than ICE vehicles.
 

Bob from Florida

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The battery costs tens of thousands.

The big question that occurs to me is: if we were to allow capitalism to function with regards to electric vehicles, how successful would their sales be? Without government intervention - in the form of rebates, manipulation of fuel prices to discourage consumption, surcharges on ICE, etc.
 

Frank Dernie

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EVs are actually much easier (lower cost labor and hours) to build than ICE vehicles.
The motor and transmission very much so, obviously, the thermal management much more complex and the battery is unlikely to ever get inexpensive, electric vehicles were better in every way than IC engined cars except for the batteries over 100 years ago and whilst the batteries are tolerably OK now imagining this century + of development suddenly gaining a big percentage of either efficiency or cost in a short time is delusional IMO.
 
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Frank Dernie

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The big question that occurs to me is: if we were to allow capitalism to function with regards to electric vehicles, how successful would their sales be? Without government intervention - in the form of rebates, manipulation of fuel prices to discourage consumption, surcharges on ICE, etc.
Government strategies vary a great deal across the globe.
If you are interested in this aspect i am sure you can find a broad range of approaches, from lots of subsidy to none.

Edit
Here in the UK there are tax loopholes to allow businesses and employees to pay less tax for an EV.
A retired person like me had no tax or other incentives to buy my car.
Tax loopholes piss me off :)
 

symphara

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As you say most of the people bemoaning the practicalities of an EV don't own one.
For me it’s the other way around - I don’t own one because it’s impractical driving long distances. Now and again I have to go >2000km and I simply cannot be bothered to stop and charge every 500km (in the good case). Otherwise I’d pick up one of these Audi e-tron GTs, I think they’re cool and beautiful inside and out.

Having said that, we jumped in the hybrid world last summer with a Panamera and so far, so good. We organized charging at home, no issue there. Otherwise charging outside is a very patchy experience - chargers not working, too many providers (we have I think about 5 cards at this stage), some thoughtful Tesla driver taking the only Type 2 connector and leaving the DC ones, which we cannot use, untouched, etc.

Biggest surprise was, it doesn’t want to drive purely electric when it’s very cold, I didn’t know about that. Breaking is a little wonky too (just regulars not ceramics), definitely a better transition in a Toyota. Also, when the engine is cold, engaging the ICE is like an F40 turbo kicking in.

In Switzerland, cantonal road tax is significantly cheaper for hybrids, and our insurance company (Generali) gave us a 20% discount for this reason alone.
 

Bob from Florida

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Biggest surprise was, it doesn’t want to drive purely electric when it’s very cold, I didn’t know about that.

Assuming the batteries are Lithium Ion, there is a lower limit to temperature where they operate or can be charged. Some batteries self heat to avoid this issue.
 

symphara

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Assuming the batteries are Lithium Ion, there is a lower limit to temperature where they operate or can be charged. Some batteries self heat to avoid this issue.
No issues charging (although we use an underground garage where it’s never that cold), just running on it. I believe it’s Li-Ion.
 

Bob from Florida

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No issues charging (although we use an underground garage where it’s never that cold), just running on it. I believe it’s Li-Ion.
Out of curiosity, looked up your vehicle. Fancy Living! Found the below on the web - which, if true, explains why you cannot run in full electric on cold days at first.
--------------
Cold engine oil. If the engine oil is below about 40 degrees, the car will start the engine regardless of battery state. The precise figures are in the e-Hybrid supplement. The cutoff temperature is higher for the first 2000 miles or so.
 

manisandher

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Wasn't intending on buying an EV for another few years at the earliest. But had a test drive in one of these and placed an order immediately:

Volkswagen ID Buzz.jpg

I absolutely loved it! 2.5 tonnes, but suprisingly nimble around town. Superb driving position due to lack of bonnet/hood at front. Very low centre of gravity for a large(ish) vehicle.

The only downside... a 12-18 month wait :(.

Mani.
 

manisandher

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